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Post by firemac on Apr 27, 2021 11:11:36 GMT
Well, that's much like what I was saying previously for the 4.4 hybrid. Fuel consumption expectations reversed and no pure EV mode @ motorway speeds. Is there no "EV" lamp that can be enabled on the dash with the later model? Yeah, the fancy animations show what's going on, but the lamp is quick and easy to take in. Yea, mine has the indicator lamp on the dash which is how I know when it is in EV mode. I would say, Philip, that when mine goes EV at high speed, it is in ECO mode. |
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Yaris
Apr 27, 2021 11:35:43 GMT
Post by philip42h on Apr 27, 2021 11:35:43 GMT
Well, that's much like what I was saying previously for the 4.4 hybrid. Fuel consumption expectations reversed and no pure EV mode @ motorway speeds. Is there no "EV" lamp that can be enabled on the dash with the later model? Yeah, the fancy animations show what's going on, but the lamp is quick and easy to take in. Yes, there's an EV lamp on the dash - but it's a small, discrete lamp, on the dash (and my eyes tend to be on the road)  The EV lamp does tend to show what's going on, as does the great big CHG / ECO / PWR dial but the "fancy animations" probably show what's going on best in real time - if one can actually be bothered to look. I suspect that if you alternately accelerate and then feather the throttle at motorway speed you will get the EV light on - pretty much at any speed while you are not pressing the 'go' pedal but, as you say, "no pure EV mode @ motorway speeds". While the petrol engine in the 4.5 is entirely different to that in the 4.4 hybrid, the underlying hybrid design is pretty similar and I'd suspect the behaviour is very much the same ... |
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Post by shcm on Apr 27, 2021 12:26:33 GMT
Nah. 4.4 hybrid definitely no EV light above 50mph, even in ECO mode and/or on a long down hill with no throttle applied. Yes there is all the usual energy recovery going on, but no "EV" indication.
I've proved this to myself beyond all reasonable doubt.
The CHG/ECO/PWR meter indication is a trend, yes, but is no hard identifier that the engine is running.
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Yaris
Apr 27, 2021 14:08:27 GMT
Post by jasehutch on Apr 27, 2021 14:08:27 GMT
The Yaris tech pack includes the HUD and this shows the status of the engine.
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Yaris
Apr 27, 2021 15:08:50 GMT
Post by philip42h on Apr 27, 2021 15:08:50 GMT
The Yaris tech pack includes the HUD and this shows the status of the engine. There are one or two folk on the other place who are really upset that the HUD isn't even an option on the self-charging RAV 4.5 - I've never had one so I don't miss it yet but I can see that it would be useful ... ... which brings me back to the question - what does it really mean when Toyota say: "It is now possible to drive in EV mode for much longer periods in urban traffic, and even maintain speeds of up to 80mph without assistance from the petrol engine." - Does it mean that under the right conditions that the Yaris can be gently accelerated from rest up to 80 mph before the petrol engine kicks in? That is what is meant, I believe, when they say that the RAV4 plug-in can get to 84 mph before starting the petrol engine.
- Does it mean that having got to 80 mph the Yaris can periodically switch off the petrol engine to run on electric power alone? Jim suggests that his will do this at motorway speeds; I don't believe that mine will; and Andy suggests "definitely no EV light above 50mph". Since Toyota say "maintain speeds of up to 80mph" I'm guessing that this is what they mean.
- Or something else?
Either way, it's very impressive ...
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Post by shcm on Apr 27, 2021 15:54:35 GMT
I guess for completeness I should have added (for 4.4 hybrid, newer models may differ): 1. If forced (maybe I should say requested) into EV only mode from standstill or low speed, on reaching about 30 mph it will tell you to get lost ("speed range exceeded" dash message). 2. If you accel slightly too hard in EV mode, it will disengage from EV mode ("Accel to great" or something message?) 2a. Eventually of course the battery depletes and it kicks out of EV mode. ("battery to low" or something like that message). 3. Then between 30 and 50 it will happily jump back and forth between electric only/engine off and combined, (with EV light coming on and off), depending on throttle demand/battery state of charge etc. 4. Above 50, engine always appears to run. Even if the battery is showing full and there is little throttle demand. ....and if it considers battery state of charge is too low, it won't let you force EV mode. Where mine gains is stop/start traffic, keeping it on electric only and not accelerating hard. It's old battery tech (low capacity) so you can generally only squeeze maybe 1.5 miles out of it with engine off at urban speeds.
Getting up a "max" speed possibly all down to something like a first, very course approximation of 0.5M(Vel)^2=ItV (except it will be far, far more complex than that).
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Post by charliefarlie on Apr 27, 2021 17:01:50 GMT
I’m unsure what a new self charging hybrid costs now. I’ve never looked on the basis of I don’t understand the technology so I’m not subscribing to it.... That and personally and I may be wrong but it’s a fast moving game with new variations on what is still a relatively new theme.
So how much more in real terms does a self charging RAV4 cost over its old sibling the new defunct diesel ? The plug in is just daft so I’m concentrating on the cars some of you have bought ?
I think we’ve established there isn’t a huge difference in MPG between the old and the new. So whatever the premium is for owning a hybrid will for the average user take a long time. This for me would be a big deciding factor if I was thinking of a new car.
I’m kinda sat on the fence with our Workhorse car now and this old car of mine is the longest I’ve kept a car ever. Never have I owned a car for so long.
I do fancy a change but as you’ve worked out I’m unsure whether it’s the right time technology wise or if I should wait. My old bus has only done 32K and is still a great workhorse. I’ve done 3 trips to the merchants today loaded to the gunwhales with kit.
The longer I hold on the bigger the cost will be come time to change. I bet I’m not alone in trying to work out if or what to buy. It’s not like there is a need to change but that’s never stopped me from buying before. I just with the MPG figures were more attractive.
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Post by philip42h on Apr 27, 2021 17:28:33 GMT
I’m unsure what a new self charging hybrid costs now. I’ve never looked on the basis of I don’t understand the technology so I’m not subscribing to it.... That and personally and I may be wrong but it’s a fast moving game with new variations on what is still a relatively new theme. So how much more in real terms does a self charging RAV4 cost over its old sibling the new defunct diesel ? The plug in is just daft so I’m concentrating on the cars some of you have bought ? I think we’ve established there isn’t a huge difference in MPG between the old and the new. So whatever the premium is for owning a hybrid will for the average user take a long time. This for me would be a big deciding factor if I was thinking of a new car. I’m kinda sat on the fence with our Workhorse car now and this old car of mine is the longest I’ve kept a car ever. Never have I owned a car for so long. I do fancy a change but as you’ve worked out I’m unsure whether it’s the right time technology wise or if I should wait. My old bus has only done 32K and is still a great workhorse. I’ve done 3 trips to the merchants today loaded to the gunwhales with kit. The longer I hold on the bigger the cost will be come time to change. I bet I’m not alone in trying to work out if or what to buy. It’s not like there is a need to change but that’s never stopped me from buying before. I just with the MPG figures were more attractive. The equivalent to your Invincible with all the toys is around £40k list - the discounters will take around £5k off that, so you'd be looking at around £35k for a shiny new one. Financially, it makes no sense to change. I'll never break even - I just wanted a new car and, exactly as you've said, "the longer I hold on the bigger the cost will be come time to change". Essentially the new RAV serves exactly the same purpose as the old RAV - OK it's a bit bigger, quieter, a bit quicker, more comfortable, maybe not such a good tow car - but it's still just a more modern RAV4. If your old RAV were to start to be 'unreliable' and your needs for a car remain exactly the same then a new RAV might be a good choice. If your needs were to change ... then something else might be more suitable. |
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Yaris
Apr 27, 2021 17:39:54 GMT
Post by charliefarlie on Apr 27, 2021 17:39:54 GMT
I’m unsure what a new self charging hybrid costs now. I’ve never looked on the basis of I don’t understand the technology so I’m not subscribing to it.... That and personally and I may be wrong but it’s a fast moving game with new variations on what is still a relatively new theme. So how much more in real terms does a self charging RAV4 cost over its old sibling the new defunct diesel ? The plug in is just daft so I’m concentrating on the cars some of you have bought ? I think we’ve established there isn’t a huge difference in MPG between the old and the new. So whatever the premium is for owning a hybrid will for the average user take a long time. This for me would be a big deciding factor if I was thinking of a new car. I’m kinda sat on the fence with our Workhorse car now and this old car of mine is the longest I’ve kept a car ever. Never have I owned a car for so long. I do fancy a change but as you’ve worked out I’m unsure whether it’s the right time technology wise or if I should wait. My old bus has only done 32K and is still a great workhorse. I’ve done 3 trips to the merchants today loaded to the gunwhales with kit. The longer I hold on the bigger the cost will be come time to change. I bet I’m not alone in trying to work out if or what to buy. It’s not like there is a need to change but that’s never stopped me from buying before. I just with the MPG figures were more attractive. The equivalent to your Invincible with all the toys is around £40k list - the discounters will take around £5k off that, so you'd be looking at around £35k for a shiny new one. Financially, it makes no sense to change. I'll never break even - I just wanted a new car and, exactly as you've said, "the longer I hold on the bigger the cost will be come time to change". Essentially the new RAV serves exactly the same purpose as the old RAV - OK it's a bit bigger, quieter, a bit quicker, more comfortable, maybe not such a good tow car - but it's still just a more modern RAV4. If your old RAV were to start to be 'unreliable' and your needs for a car remain exactly the same then a new RAV might be a good choice. If your needs were to change ... then something else might be more suitable. Just spent an hour browsing hybrid prices.... In early 2014 I bought my invincible with every option 3 or 4 months old with 6.000 miles for 25K. To buy a current top of the range with equivalent miles it’s 33 to 34K. Even taking in minimal inflation the numbers don’t stack. Top Gear did a Review of the PHEV version and really rate it. But real world MPG they say was 4O MPG.... That surely can’t be right ? The main gains I can see with both the hybrid and the PHEV is the performance. The old diesel ain’t slow but the PHEV is supposed to absolutely fly with a combined BHP of 302 so it should. Question. Will there be batteries to change ? That’s levelled at both hybrid and PHEV ?? |
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Yaris
Apr 27, 2021 17:41:07 GMT
shcm likes this
Post by philip42h on Apr 27, 2021 17:41:07 GMT
I guess for completeness I should have added (for 4.4 hybrid, newer models may differ): 1. If forced (maybe I should say requested) into EV only mode from standstill or low speed, on reaching about 30 mph it will tell you to get lost ("speed range exceeded" dash message). 2. If you accel slightly too hard in EV mode, it will disengage from EV mode ("Accel to great" or something message?) 2a. Eventually of course the battery depletes and it kicks out of EV mode. ("battery to low" or something like that message). 3. Then between 30 and 50 it will happily jump back and forth between electric only/engine off and combined, (with EV light coming on and off), depending on throttle demand/battery state of charge etc. 4. Above 50, engine always appears to run. Even if the battery is showing full and there is little throttle demand. ....and if it considers battery state of charge is too low, it won't let you force EV mode. Where mine gains is stop/start traffic, keeping it on electric only and not accelerating hard. It's old battery tech (low capacity) so you can generally only squeeze maybe 1.5 miles out of it with engine off at urban speeds.
Getting up a "max" speed possibly all down to something like a first, very course approximation of 0.5M(Vel)^2=ItV (except it will be far, far more complex than that).
I'll need to do some 'experiments' but I strongly suspect the 4.5 will be very similar ... Looking at a comparison between the 4.4 and 4.5 hybrid systems: - The traction batteries are identical - Nickel-metal hydride, 204 cells in 34 module giving a nominal 244.8 volts - so exactly the same amount of electrical shove
- The 4.4 has bigger electric motors than the 4.5 - 105kW / 270Nm in the 4.4 vs. 88kw / 202Nm in the 4.5 - so they can probably charge and deplete the traction battery faster
- The newer A25A-FXS engine in the 4.5 delivers more torque across a broader rev range than the 2AAR-FXE engine in the 4.4 - 221Nm @ 3,600-5,200 rpm in the 4.5 vs. 206Nm @ 4,400-4,800 rpm in the 4.4
So, any 'improvement' in the 4.5 over the 4.4 seems to be in the petrol engine rather than in the electric drive systems ...
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Yaris
Apr 27, 2021 17:48:11 GMT
Post by philip42h on Apr 27, 2021 17:48:11 GMT
The equivalent to your Invincible with all the toys is around £40k list - the discounters will take around £5k off that, so you'd be looking at around £35k for a shiny new one. Financially, it makes no sense to change. I'll never break even - I just wanted a new car and, exactly as you've said, "the longer I hold on the bigger the cost will be come time to change". Essentially the new RAV serves exactly the same purpose as the old RAV - OK it's a bit bigger, quieter, a bit quicker, more comfortable, maybe not such a good tow car - but it's still just a more modern RAV4. If your old RAV were to start to be 'unreliable' and your needs for a car remain exactly the same then a new RAV might be a good choice. If your needs were to change ... then something else might be more suitable. Just spent an hour browsing hybrid prices.... In early 2014 I bought my invincible with every option 3 or 4 months old with 6.000 miles for 25K. To buy a current top of the range with equivalent miles it’s 33 to 34K. Even taking in minimal inflation the numbers don’t stack. Top Gear did a Review of the PHEV version and really rate it. But real world MPG they say was 4O MPG.... That surely can’t be right ? The main gains I can see with both the hybrid and the PHEV is the performance. The old diesel ain’t slow but the PHEV is supposed to absolutely fly with a combined BHP of 302 so it should. Question. Will there be batteries to change ? That’s levelled at both hybrid and PHEV ?? Toyota say: All new Toyota Hybrid batteries carry a five-year or 100k mile warranty, whichever comes first. And then: With Toyota Hybrid Service carried out annually, your Toyota is eligible for a further 1-year or 10,000 miles of Hybrid battery extended cover, up to a total if 15 years. So, the batteries are good for 15 years - both self-charging and PHEV - and then can be repaired / replaced if you want / need to ... the traction battery isn't a concern for me. |
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Post by shcm on Apr 27, 2021 17:54:16 GMT
Question. Will there be batteries to change ? That’s levelled at both hybrid and PHEV ?? Well ultimately at some point, yes.....but ultimately there will be an engine to change too!
If I remember correctly, at one point they were doing 8 year warranty on the traction battery, but looks like it's dropped to 5:
...but also looks like they are doing the old gotcha of have a dealer service and we'll throw in cover up to 15 years or you can buy cover is the way I read it.
Tame service representative told me, if you have an annual hybrid health check (which will probably be not much more than plugging in a diagnostic tool), Toyota will probably be very supportive, if you end up with a duff battery.
Remember, these packs are charged and managed very carefully by the on-board system. There's a little bit more care than say charging a power tool battery. Nothing is perfect of course. I worked with someone who had a very early Prius and his pack did have to be changed. However they've sold millions of these systems since then. Manufacturing and Engineering experience will be far superior now.
I feel hybrid days are numbered in the next few years though.
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Yaris
Apr 27, 2021 18:19:43 GMT
Post by charliefarlie on Apr 27, 2021 18:19:43 GMT
Question. Will there be batteries to change ? That’s levelled at both hybrid and PHEV ?? Well ultimately at some point, yes.....but ultimately there will be an engine to change too!
If I remember correctly, at one point they were doing 8 year warranty on the traction battery, but looks like it's dropped to 5:
...but also looks like they are doing the old gotcha of have a dealer service and we'll throw in cover up to 15 years or you can buy cover is the way I read it.
Tame service representative told me, if you have an annual hybrid health check (which will probably be not much more than plugging in a diagnostic tool), Toyota will probably be very supportive, if you end up with a duff battery.
Remember, these packs are charged and managed very carefully by the on-board system. There's a little bit more care than say charging a power tool battery. Nothing is perfect of course. I worked with someone who had a very early Prius and his pack did have to be changed. However they've sold millions of these systems since then. Manufacturing and Engineering experience will be far superior now.
I feel hybrid days are numbered in the next few years though.
Hybrid years are numbered in the same way petrol and diesel cars are  By 2030 is it electric only or are hybrids still going to be allowed ? |
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Post by shcm on Apr 27, 2021 18:27:09 GMT
Plug-in hybrids are allowed until 2035, but need to provided a "significant distance" with zero emissions whatever "significant" means.
I suspect most, if not all, will be gone sometime by then anyway, is what I mean. It's clear from some elec industry job advert requirements I see, some of the newer high temperature/high voltage semiconductors that are appearing and the battery tech research companies that are springing up, that there's a fair bit of cash going into this. I suppose when ICE development now costs billions, if you turn that off to a trickle, you should have some of that cash to spend on such things.
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Yaris
Apr 27, 2021 18:56:17 GMT
via mobile
Post by firemac on Apr 27, 2021 18:56:17 GMT
Plug-in hybrids are allowed until 2035, but need to provided a "significant distance" with zero emissions whatever "significant" means. I suspect most, if not all, will be gone sometime by then anyway, is what I mean It’s debatable whether BJ’s 2030 target will be achieved bearing in mind the resistance amongst the average drivers towards EVs, the inability of the National Grid to provide enough power to routinely charge the 25 to 30 million EVs that BJ wants to replace all today’s conventional vehicles with (made even difficult if the NT is going to only have windmills to generate electricity) and the problem of having a workable network of recharging points. I have read several reports that suggest that to meet the 2030 target, something between 5K and 7K charging points will need to be installed every day until 2030 to service the targeted number of EVs! So far, the best that has been achieved is 300 per day. And what about all those folks who have no driveways or who live in flats/tower blocks? Time to buy shares in extension lead manufacturers...... Personally I think this green revolution of BJs is one of the most hare-brained policies since the Poll Tax. Of course BJ won’t be around to have to worry about delivering it and successive governments will likely have no choice but to push the deadline back when they realise that it is utterly impossible. Ultimately I reckon ICE vehicles will still be around by 2050. |
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By 2030 is it electric only or are hybrids still going to be allowed ?