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Yaris
Apr 26, 2021 6:54:58 GMT
Post by charliefarlie on Apr 26, 2021 6:54:58 GMT
First generation is described as 4.1, second as 4.2, third as 4.3 (and 4.3.5), fourth gen like yours as 4.4 and the fifth generation (with square wheels) as 4.5 ...  You missed out the facelift 4.4. We’ve regarded that as the 4.4.5 for some time. I think Andys car is the facelifted one. I was under the impression your car is pretty much all new with a different body shape altogether so it’s not a facelift it’s a new model in its own right. When a brand new model comes out it usually gets designated with a new number. Doesent matter. But it makes identifying the different models. |
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Post by philip42h on Apr 26, 2021 7:17:33 GMT
First generation is described as 4.1, second as 4.2, third as 4.3 (and 4.3.5), fourth gen like yours as 4.4 and the fifth generation (with square wheels) as 4.5 ... You missed out the facelift 4.4. I think Andys car is the facelifted one. I was under the impression your car is pretty much all new with a different body shape altogether so it’s not a facelift it’s a new model in its own right. Doesent matter. But it makes identifying the different models. You are correct on both counts ... there was a 4.4.5 (face-lifted version of what you have and I had) and mine is the fifth generation - new from the ground up ... |
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Post by shcm on Apr 26, 2021 7:46:42 GMT
I don't know who coined the "4.x.5" stuff for facelifts (It's back in mists of time), but we sort of stuck with it, even though possibly it kind of doesn't fit with normal pattern of "release numbers". (..and anyway they are more of akin to software release numbers than vehicle releases. Anyway......) As I understand it, the first "4" refers to the "4" in RAV4. The second figure is the generation and the third figure a facelift which is often (wrongly in my opinion) a "5", but that doesn't work well if there's more than one facelift in a generation. e.g. There we 2 facelifts of the 4.3 generation. To my mind the references should be something like this. More common references along side: Approx Year First Introduced
| Generation
| Facelift
| Common Reference
| More Logical Reference??
| Personal Comment/Opinion
| 1994/95
| 1
| - | 4.1
| 4.1.0
| Don't know a lot about these. Was there a facelift??? Bothy's your expert for these
| 2000
| 2
| - | 4.2
| 4.2.0*
| "square" fog lamps
| | 2003 | 2 | 1 | 4.2.5
| 4.2.1
| "round" fog lamps
| 2006/07
| 3
| -
| 4.3
| 4.3.0*
| Included T180. Majority of 2.2 D4D oil usage problems here
| | 2009/10 | 3
| 1 | 4.3.5
| 4.3.1* | 2.2D reworked. 150 D4D was a cracker. Nearly as good as T180.
| | 2011/12 | 3 | 2 | ??
| 4.3.2 | Kev's (now owned by A.N. Other, further south) very nice auto was one of these.
| | 2012/13 | 4 | - | 4.4
| 4.4.0
| Charlie's generation, I believe
| | 2015 | 4 | 1
| 4.4.5
| 4.4.1*
| My hybrid model.
| | 2018 | 5
| -
| 4.5
| 4.5.0
| Philip's hybrid? Firemac's too? or have we had another cosmetic tweak since? Dunno
|
* = models I've owned
(No claim is made for the above being completely accurate).
Or stick to Toyota's "frame numbers"!
Some other comments, based on what I've read above:
1. I find the hybrid turns fuel consumption expectations on their head. I get worse consumption now on long m/way trips compared with urban. For the 4.4 hybrid (can't comment on 4.5, maybe they've tweaked it) there is no "EV" mode above 50mph, so you are essentially back to a 2.5l petrol engine for long high speed runs (and I'd expect worse consumption for that).
2. While I would have liked to have believed hydrogen fuel cells were the future for producing power for electric passenger cars, I'm no longer convinced. Allegedly it's far more efficient to directly charge an EV battery than do the conversion to hydrogen. Personally, I might occasionally do a 500 mile journey in a day. A genuine range of 250 miles at high speed, and 1 hour recharge I could live with. I'm likely to stop for an hour (e.g. to eat) after a couple of hundred miles. True, it does not fit everybody's usage case. You could easily need to do a 250+ round mile trip in Scottish highlands, for example and not get access to a rapid recharge point. Commerical vehicles may be more tricky. I *think* I'm right in saying that at the moment, for a given size, you get less peak current from a fuel cell compared with an EV battery, which may translate to slightly lower performance from a fuel cell. (I've seen a few industry lectures on this stuff).
So, the places that have all the rare metals for EV battery production get rich now.......
I work with a German guy who has no problems driving a Tesla from the Stuttgart area of Germany to/from Brum, when he's allowed! (The car will plot the recharge points). I'm not praising Tesla, I'm not convinced by some of their practices, but it's a demo of what's possible.
3.....and will road pricing raise it's head again? Or will all our vehicle charging have to be from an "approved" charging point (whether @ home or elsewhere) to apply the correct rate of "charging tax"? ....and will vehicle odometers have to be cross-referenced against the vehicle charging record to check you haven't illicitly charged your vehicle? Can't help thinking there will be a big tax income hole otherwise. 
4......and what will "boy racers" be doing to modify things using the latest "snake oil" performance kits? Super strong magnet replacement in drive motors, for extra torque.
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Yaris
Apr 26, 2021 8:20:59 GMT
Post by philip42h on Apr 26, 2021 8:20:59 GMT
I don't know who coined the "4.x.5" stuff for facelifts (It's back in mists of time), but we sort of stuck with it, even though possibly it kind of doesn't fit with normal pattern of "release numbers". (..and anyway they are more of akin to software release numbers than vehicle releases. Anyway......) As I understand it, the first "4" refers to the "4" in RAV4. The second figure is the generation and the third figure a facelift which is often (wrongly in my opinion) a "5", but that doesn't work well if there's more than one facelift in a generation. e.g. There we 2 facelifts of the 4.3 generation. To my mind the references should be something like this. More common references along side: Approx Year First Introduced
| Generation
| Facelift
| Common Reference
| More Logical Reference??
| Personal Comment/Opinion
| 1994/95
| 1
| - | 4.1
| 4.1.0
| Don't know a lot about these. Was there a facelift??? Bothy's your expert for these
| 2000
| 2
| - | 4.2
| 4.2.0*
| "square" fog lamps
| | 2003 | 2 | 1 | 4.2.5
| 4.2.1
| "round" fog lamps
| 2006/07
| 3
| -
| 4.3
| 4.3.0*
| Included T180. Majority of 2.2 D4D oil usage problems here
| | 2009/10 | 3
| 1 | 4.3.5
| 4.3.1* | 2.2D reworked. 150 D4D was a cracker. Nearly as good as T180.
| | 2011/12 | 3 | 2 | ??
| 4.3.2 | Kev's (now owned by A.N. Other, further south) very nice auto was one of these.
| | 2012/13 | 4 | - | 4.4
| 4.4.0
| Charlie's generation, I believe
| | 2015 | 4 | 1
| 4.4.5
| 4.4.1*
| My hybrid model.
| | 2018 | 5
| -
| 4.5
| 4.5.0
| Philip's hybrid? Firemac's too? or have we had another cosmetic tweak since? Dunno
|
* = models I've owned
(No claim is made for the above being completely accurate).
Or stick to Toyota's "frame numbers"! The generation number element is fair enough and I guess the 'face-lift' element refers to visual clues that might distinguish between the years of production - but, as you tend to imply, the subtle and not so subtle engineering changes are rather more relevant if more difficult to observe. Cases in point within the 4.4 lifespan would be the discontinuation of the 2.2 diesel, the introduction of the "BMW" 2.0 diesel and the hybrid. I don't think that there has been a face-lift yet to the 4.5 - the Black Edition is just black paint - but every model year has be just a little different from the year before. 2021 model come on 19" wheels rather than 18" and space saver spares are increasingly hard to find! I guess that the Plug-in Hybrid might count since, I believe, it has a few styling tweaks and an extra 'filler flap'! |
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Yaris
Apr 26, 2021 12:19:07 GMT
shcm likes this
Post by jasehutch on Apr 26, 2021 12:19:07 GMT
I believe that the Yaris hybrid will do 80 mph in electric mode , what are the figures for the latest Rav 4 ?
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Post by philip42h on Apr 26, 2021 14:04:17 GMT
I believe that the Yaris hybrid will do 80 mph in electric mode , what are the figures for the latest Rav 4 ? I don't know / haven't seen that figure. I know that the plug-in hybrid is supposed to be able to get to 84 mph on electric only. I pretty much only run in Normal mode so the engine cuts in and out as it wants to. I did, on the test drive, try pressing EV at something like 40 or 50 mph and it told me, politely, to get lost! The RAV4 self-charging hybrid really should be thought of as a petrol powered car with the engine tuned for economy. The electric motors take the place of the turbo to give instant grunt when you want it - but only for a short while such as pulling away and overtaking. On the motorway the engine hums away providing power continuously while the electric motors deliver extra torque to get up the hills and harvest electricity as you go down the other side. Edit: found a post on RAV4 world that suggested EV mode runs up to 19 mph - I can well believe that! |
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Post by charliefarlie on Apr 26, 2021 15:29:39 GMT
If my car is 4th generation how can the brand new and all new at that be 4th generation ? Thick I may be but that makes no sense. When I changed from the older shape 4.3 the then new shape was christened the 4.4.......... Not 4.3.5....... How I’ve always regarded it. 2006 saw the T180 shape which was a complete change to the 4.2 like Uncle Bob has. This I’ve always called the 4.3 2010 saw revisions to the headlights. A slight bulge added to the bonnet and seats were a mix of Alcantara and leather. This is the car that Kev had and ran till 2012 ... This I’ve always regarded as the 4.3.5 The .5 designating the facelift. 2012 into 2013 saw a complete body change. Car was bigger and a different body shape altogether to the previous shape. This I’ve always regarded as the 4.4 The shape I have now. Not quite sure when the facelift came out to the 4.4 but it has different headlights bumpers the rear lights boot lid and bumpers all slightly changed. The Hybrid power train was now an option. Typical mid term Toyota facelift. This I’ve always regarded as the 4.4.5. Again the .5 designating the facelift to the 4.4 This is the shape Andy had . Then out came the brand new model that has a completely different body shape. I believe it’s slightly bigger again. I bears little if any resemblance to the older 4.4 or 4.4.5.... This then must surely be designated as the 5 th generation  ? Or am I missing something |
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Yaris
Apr 26, 2021 15:52:38 GMT
via mobile
Post by Mb2t on Apr 26, 2021 15:52:38 GMT
Agree that EVs are more and more viable option. For towing- forget it... there was a test (caravan club a year or two ago) od the Ipace, and it could tow less than 900kg, and the range was less than 100mile if i remember correctly.
I think the Achilles heel of EVs are charging points. There are not enough of them, and there are quite a few companies each one requires registration with a different app. For EV market to succeed this area need resolving.
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Yaris
Apr 26, 2021 17:47:40 GMT
Post by philip42h on Apr 26, 2021 17:47:40 GMT
If my car is 4th generation how can the brand new and all new at that be 4th generation ? Thick I may be but that makes no sense. When I changed from the older shape 4.3 the then new shape was christened the 4.4.......... Not 4.3.5....... How I’ve always regarded it. 2006 saw the T180 shape which was a complete change to the 4.2 like Uncle Bob has. This I’ve always called the 4.3 2010 saw revisions to the headlights. A slight bulge added to the bonnet and seats were a mix of Alcantara and leather. This is the car that Kev had and ran till 2012 ... This I’ve always regarded as the 4.3.5 The .5 designating the facelift. 2012 into 2013 saw a complete body change. Car was bigger and a different body shape altogether to the previous shape. This I’ve always regarded as the 4.4 The shape I have now. Not quite sure when the facelift came out to the 4.4 but it has different headlights bumpers the rear lights boot lid and bumpers all slightly changed. The Hybrid power train was now an option. Typical mid term Toyota facelift. This I’ve always regarded as the 4.4.5. Again the .5 designating the facelift to the 4.4 This is the shape Andy had . Then out came the brand new model that has a completely different body shape. I believe it’s slightly bigger again. I bears little if any resemblance to the older 4.4 or 4.4.5.... This then must surely be designated as the 5 th generation ? Or am I missing something ... and that's exactly how we all see it and agree.  Your's is fourth generation - so a RAV4 .4 Mine is fifth generation - so a RAV4 .5 I don't think you are missing anything at all - though maybe the dyslexia is messing with you a bit? |
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Post by jasehutch on Apr 26, 2021 17:53:20 GMT
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Post by firemac on Apr 26, 2021 18:25:00 GMT
Mine switches into EV mode at every opportunity. If I cruise at 75, say, on a dual carriage way, it switches into EV until I need to accelerate then the engine kicks in with the electric motors. The acceleration is immediate and bloody amazing.😊
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Yaris
Apr 26, 2021 18:32:39 GMT
Post by charliefarlie on Apr 26, 2021 18:32:39 GMT
If my car is 4th generation how can the brand new and all new at that be 4th generation ? Thick I may be but that makes no sense. When I changed from the older shape 4.3 the then new shape was christened the 4.4.......... Not 4.3.5....... How I’ve always regarded it. 2006 saw the T180 shape which was a complete change to the 4.2 like Uncle Bob has. This I’ve always called the 4.3 2010 saw revisions to the headlights. A slight bulge added to the bonnet and seats were a mix of Alcantara and leather. This is the car that Kev had and ran till 2012 ... This I’ve always regarded as the 4.3.5 The .5 designating the facelift. 2012 into 2013 saw a complete body change. Car was bigger and a different body shape altogether to the previous shape. This I’ve always regarded as the 4.4 The shape I have now. Not quite sure when the facelift came out to the 4.4 but it has different headlights bumpers the rear lights boot lid and bumpers all slightly changed. The Hybrid power train was now an option. Typical mid term Toyota facelift. This I’ve always regarded as the 4.4.5. Again the .5 designating the facelift to the 4.4 This is the shape Andy had . Then out came the brand new model that has a completely different body shape. I believe it’s slightly bigger again. I bears little if any resemblance to the older 4.4 or 4.4.5.... This then must surely be designated as the 5 th generation ? Or am I missing something ... and that's exactly how we all see it and agree. Your's is fourth generation - so a RAV4 .4 Mine is fifth generation - so a RAV4 .5 I don't think you are missing anything at all - though maybe the dyslexia is messing with you a bit? Dyslexia can be a right pain trust me. I posted the above in response to Andys post above. 👍👍👍 That said having re read Andys post I read it wrong in the first place. I’m off to stick my head in a bucket........ |
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Post by shcm on Apr 26, 2021 18:58:32 GMT
2010 saw revisions to the headlights. A slight bulge added to the bonnet and seats were a mix of Alcantara and leather. This is the car that Kev had and ran till 2012 ... This I’ve always regarded as the 4.3.5 The .5 designating the facelift. Sorry, but you're kind of wrong about that. 2009/10 had subtle styling changes. I know, I owned both a 2007 model and then a 2009/10 model. The grill changed and got chromed (yes the T180 was chromed, but the early standard vehicles from 2006/07 weren't). The area around the fog lamps was different. The rear lamps were slightly different. The steering wheel changed (got a flat bottom).
At 2009/10 The door mirrors got indicators, the headlights got a subtly different shape (I know, I had headlamp protectors at the time and the ones from 2007 did not fit the 2009/10 model). More importantly the standard D4D went from 130 to 150 and many of the initial engine problems were ironed out. e.g. EGR changed for a start. The 2009/10 model onwards was the vehicle that the 3rd generation should always have been from the start.
I spent a very wet day in Derbyshire (are they all?  ) with Ancs, where we both carefully compared our 2006/07 vehicles with a 2009/10 test drive vehicle, before we both got bitten and bought one. Don't mention Tidal blue to Ancs! The second more distinctive facelift came around then end of 2010 to 2011 and did run to the end. I shouldn't speak for Kev, but this is the one Kev had after he had a SR180. This second facelift is the one you are referring to, but it wasn't the first 3rd gen facelift. There were two.
2006/07/08 model
2009/10 model:
Kev's model:
Edit: This post being composed while you were reposting, so we are probably all in agreement.
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Yaris
Apr 27, 2021 8:42:37 GMT
Post by philip42h on Apr 27, 2021 8:42:37 GMT
Mine switches into EV mode at every opportunity. If I cruise at 75, say, on a dual carriage way, it switches into EV until I need to accelerate then the engine kicks in with the electric motors. The acceleration is immediate and bloody amazing.😊 I was surprised by that and needed to check ... mine doesn't work quite that way ... My car is registered with the MyT app - it spies on me and my driving, recording how I do trip by trip and mile by mile and makes 'helpful' suggestions on how to be a 'better' hybrid driver ... but interestingly is does record stats per trip. I've done two trips in the past week or two: One down to have tea in the garden with the in-laws - well over 100 miles of mostly (clear) motorway cruising at an indicated 70 mph (radar cruise control); the other to the neighbouring town for click and collect shopping - around 15 miles on A and B roads with traffic and speed limits to observe.
| Motorway | A & B Roads | Hybrid Score
| 72 | 70 | | EV time (%) | 11% | 63% | | EV distance (%) | 5% | 45% | | Fuel consumption | 47.5 mpg | 53.2 mpg | | Trip Duration | 1h48 | 0h35 | | Trip Distance | 103.8 miles | 14.0 miles | | Average Speed | 58 mph | 24 mph |
| | |
The app also shows the route of the trip and colours segments as 'EV' and 'Non-EV' - none of the motorway distance was coloured as EV; the petrol engine ran all the time; the EV time and distance were recorded on the minor roads between the in-laws and the motorway; the trip segment ended at a motorway service station because I needed fuel. The electric motors were, of course, helping out throughout that journey harvesting energy and suppling support as needed. These are results from only two journey segments but they are typical of similar journey types. Oh, and "The acceleration is immediate and bloody amazing.😊" |
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Yaris
Apr 27, 2021 10:50:35 GMT
Post by shcm on Apr 27, 2021 10:50:35 GMT
Well, that's much like what I was saying previously for the 4.4 hybrid. Fuel consumption expectations reversed and no pure EV mode @ motorway speeds.
Is there no "EV" lamp that can be enabled on the dash with the later model? Yeah, the fancy animations show what's going on, but the lamp is quick and easy to take in.
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