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Yaris
Apr 25, 2021 16:54:41 GMT
Post by charliefarlie on Apr 25, 2021 16:54:41 GMT
What’s happened to the Plug in Hybrid ? Lot of talk about that power train and nothing yet ?? The self charging Hybrids just aren’t delivering the MPG that was promised .. At what point will it change and the current hybrids become old hat ? If a plug in came out that delivered significant gains running cost wise it might motivate me to change my 7 + year old car. But for now there’s no point. I run round in the wee VW cos it’s dead cheap to run. Even driven really hard it still returns 55 plus MPG. If a cheap to run SUV came out I may change from 2 to 1 cars. Where have you been Charlie? There's a RAV4 plug-in hybrid ready and waiting for you - available from £46,495 to £50,895 plus toys and paint!  Faced with a price I really couldn't afford, I went with the self-charging hybrid option. It's a RAV4 (in size and character) that will return around 45 mpg - compared to the 37/38 mpg that I got from the diesel - so it's more economical that it's forebears and delivers pretty much exactly what the WLTP figures promise. At 70 on the motorway it will run at around 47 mpg, at a slower speed on A roads it'll do over 50 mpg, but you do get less in stop/start conditions and on short journeys. I do still hanker for the plug-in - that would make shorter journeys 'free' - but at the economy of the self-charging hybrid I'd have to do over 60,000 miles before I had any chance of breaking even ... You really can't, sensibly, compare the Up GTi and a RAV hybrid - they are just plain different!  Beg pardon I’m obviously behind. Locked up for to long. My comparisons are with the New Hybrid RAV4 like Jim’s and my old oil burner. Comparisons with Jases Hybrid Yaris ive done with the Up. They are similar in size though the Yaris is a bit heavier. Im not trying to make out my old oil burner can compare to the hybrid new cars or the Up GTI can compare to the Yaris Hybrid but they aren’t that far apart. Certainly not what they should be given the very large price differences .. Yaris starts at just shy of 22K. Fully optioned Up GTI is 15K..... Now that is some difference. Sorry but 50K for a Toyota RAV4 is just silly........ That’s twice what my old bus cost 7+ years ago. |
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Yaris
Apr 25, 2021 17:06:34 GMT
Post by davrav on Apr 25, 2021 17:06:34 GMT
Problem with looking at all in, single payment prices is that many folk never even consider that. All they concern themselves with is a monthly payment cost.
I suspect that those of us here who buy/have bought a car outright from new are not representative of the car 'buying' public at large who actually lease or rent their vehicle of the moment for a period and then move on to another.
With the paltry interest rates on savings the opportunity to 'save up' and buy a car outright is not a possibility for many.
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Yaris
Apr 25, 2021 17:12:35 GMT
Post by philip42h on Apr 25, 2021 17:12:35 GMT
Where have you been Charlie? There's a RAV4 plug-in hybrid ready and waiting for you - available from £46,495 to £50,895 plus toys and paint! Faced with a price I really couldn't afford, I went with the self-charging hybrid option. It's a RAV4 (in size and character) that will return around 45 mpg - compared to the 37/38 mpg that I got from the diesel - so it's more economical that it's forebears and delivers pretty much exactly what the WLTP figures promise. At 70 on the motorway it will run at around 47 mpg, at a slower speed on A roads it'll do over 50 mpg, but you do get less in stop/start conditions and on short journeys. I do still hanker for the plug-in - that would make shorter journeys 'free' - but at the economy of the self-charging hybrid I'd have to do over 60,000 miles before I had any chance of breaking even ... You really can't, sensibly, compare the Up GTi and a RAV hybrid - they are just plain different! Beg pardon I’m obviously behind. Locked up for to long. My comparisons are with the New Hybrid RAV4 like Jim’s and my old oil burner. Comparisons with Jases Hybrid Yaris ive done with the Up. They are similar in size though the Yaris is a bit heavier. Im not trying to make out my old oil burner can compare to the hybrid new cars or the Up GTI can compare to the Yaris Hybrid but they aren’t that far apart. Certainly not what they should be given the very large price differences .. Yaris starts at just shy of 22K. Fully optioned Up GTI is 15K..... Now that is some difference. Sorry but 50K for a Toyota RAV4 is just silly........ That’s twice what my old bus cost 7+ years ago. There we agree entirely - £50K for a RAV4 is too much. In more enlightened (Scandinavian) countries the plug-in hybrid is cheaper to buy that the self charging hybrid - but that's not the case in the UK. As for reasonable comparisons as between your or my old oil burning 4.5 and Jim's or my self charging 4.5 - I could never get better than a 38 mpg average brim to brim from the 4.4 while, like Jim, I currently have a 43 mpg average brim to brim from the very few tankfuls I've put through the 4.5 over the last lock-down winter. I'm very confident of getting better than 45 mpg once we free from lock-down. So that's around a 15% improvement in fuel economy for the self-charging hybrid over the old diesel ... basically it delivers exactly what it says on the tin ... ... but that is no where near enough to justify the cost of switching from a diesel RAV that you've already got to a shiny new self-charging hybrid that you'd have to shell out for - you, I, we would need a 'different' motivation for that! |
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Yaris
Apr 25, 2021 17:30:06 GMT
Post by charliefarlie on Apr 25, 2021 17:30:06 GMT
Beg pardon I’m obviously behind. Locked up for to long. My comparisons are with the New Hybrid RAV4 like Jim’s and my old oil burner. Comparisons with Jases Hybrid Yaris ive done with the Up. They are similar in size though the Yaris is a bit heavier. Im not trying to make out my old oil burner can compare to the hybrid new cars or the Up GTI can compare to the Yaris Hybrid but they aren’t that far apart. Certainly not what they should be given the very large price differences .. Yaris starts at just shy of 22K. Fully optioned Up GTI is 15K..... Now that is some difference. Sorry but 50K for a Toyota RAV4 is just silly........ That’s twice what my old bus cost 7+ years ago. There we agree entirely - £50K for a RAV4 is too much. In more enlightened (Scandinavian) countries the plug-in hybrid is cheaper to buy that the self charging hybrid - but that's not the case in the UK. As for reasonable comparisons as between your or my old oil burning 4.5 and Jim's or my self charging 4.5 - I could never get better than a 38 mpg average brim to brim from the 4.4 while, like Jim, I currently have a 43 mpg average brim to brim from the very few tankfuls I've put through the 4.5 over the last lock-down winter. I'm very confident of getting better than 45 mpg once we free from lockI -down. So that's around a 15% improvement in fuel economy for the self-charging hybrid over the old diesel ... basically it delivers exactly what it says on the tin ... ... but that is no where near enough to justify the cost of switching from a diesel RAV that you've already got to a shiny new self-charging hybrid that you'd have to shell out for - you, I, we would need a 'different' motivation for that! I agree with your figures. But is 5 MPG worth it ? The other thing is the complexity of these newer cars. OK I will admit the electric side is beyond me but surely at some point a new battery could be needed ? Ive just had a thumb round and the all electric Jag Ipace can be had for 48K which is still a chunk of change. Couldn’t see any deals on the Plug in RAV4..... Jag does in the real world 250 miles on a charge...... Now again being honest I’ve not a clue what it costs to charge it up but surely it’s not more than say 15 quid ? My points here are not to diss anyone’s cars in any way at all.... It’s the gains I’m trying to understand. With the new plug in RAV4 I’m assuming it still has the 2.5 petrol engine plus the electric side ? Still hybrid ? So electricity and petrol to pay ? If that’s so then it’s running costs will likely still be much higher than the all electric equivalents Jag or otherwise ? |
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Yaris
Apr 25, 2021 17:38:56 GMT
Post by davrav on Apr 25, 2021 17:38:56 GMT
The advantage of a PHEV vehicle is if it is used for commuting say up to 15miles each way. That can be achieved on a single charge for about £1.10. So, if doing that five days a week that's £5.50 to get to and from work for a week. If the car is used at the weekend the first 30 miles of any trip would cost £1.10 and then the petrol engine cuts in. However, the PHEV systems recover waste energy from braking, coasting and petrol drive too, using that to put some charge back into the battery. This can then be used to supplement the petrol drive later or as needed below 30mph or whatever.
When Son had the Outlander PHEVs that is exactly how it worked for him. The highest mileage he ever managed before having to refill the petrol tank was 1100miles.
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Yaris
Apr 25, 2021 17:45:24 GMT
Post by charliefarlie on Apr 25, 2021 17:45:24 GMT
The advantage of a PHEV vehicle is if it is used for commuting say up to 15miles each way. That can be achieved on a single charge for about £1.10. So, if doing that five days a week that's £5.50 to get to and from work for a week. If the car is used at the weekend the first 30 miles of any trip would cost £1.10 and then the petrol engine cuts in. However, the PHEV systems recover waste energy from braking, coasting and petrol drive too, using that to put some charge back into the battery. This can then be used to supplement the petrol drive later or as needed below 30mph or whatever. When Son had the Outlander PHEVs that is exactly how it worked for him. The highest mileage he ever managed before having to refill the petrol tank was 1100miles. That’s the nut cracked then........ I remember you explaining this a long while back. Im supposing then that the all electric cars are like a PHEV with a far bigger range but no petrol engine ( or diesel) to spoil the party ? |
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Yaris
Apr 25, 2021 17:52:09 GMT
Post by davrav on Apr 25, 2021 17:52:09 GMT
The advantage of a PHEV vehicle is if it is used for commuting say up to 15miles each way. That can be achieved on a single charge for about £1.10. So, if doing that five days a week that's £5.50 to get to and from work for a week. If the car is used at the weekend the first 30 miles of any trip would cost £1.10 and then the petrol engine cuts in. However, the PHEV systems recover waste energy from braking, coasting and petrol drive too, using that to put some charge back into the battery. This can then be used to supplement the petrol drive later or as needed below 30mph or whatever. When Son had the Outlander PHEVs that is exactly how it worked for him. The highest mileage he ever managed before having to refill the petrol tank was 1100miles. That’s the nut cracked then........ I remember you explaining this a long while back. Im supposing then that the all electric cars are like a PHEV with a far bigger range but no petrol engine ( or diesel) to spoil the party ? Just so Charlie :TU: |
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Yaris
Apr 25, 2021 17:55:50 GMT
Post by charliefarlie on Apr 25, 2021 17:55:50 GMT
That’s the nut cracked then........ I remember you explaining this a long while back. Im supposing then that the all electric cars are like a PHEV with a far bigger range but no petrol engine ( or diesel) to spoil the party ? Just so Charlie  👍👍👍👍 Just checked. Cost to charge the Ipace £12.60 if at home.... |
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Yaris
Apr 25, 2021 18:19:34 GMT
Post by davrav on Apr 25, 2021 18:19:34 GMT
Just so Charlie 👍👍👍👍 Just checked. Cost to charge the Ipace £12.60 if at home.... Sounds about right considering the potential range. |
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Yaris
Apr 25, 2021 18:54:37 GMT
Post by charliefarlie on Apr 25, 2021 18:54:37 GMT
👍👍👍👍 Just checked. Cost to charge the Ipace £12.60 if at home.... Sounds about right considering the potential range. Pretty good though ? I wonder how the running costs of the plug in RAV4 will compare.... I guess that it will be comparable unless the petrol engine kicks in ? With manufacturers like Jag able to produce a car the size of the Ipace with a decent range and at the price surely the big boys like Toyota and Honda will have to respond ? Even if they did and did so at the same price as Jaguar it’ll be only the Toyota or Honda die hards that will take the Japanese cars over the Jag....... For now at least the Jag has to be top of the heap of cheap to run decent sized SUVs.... |
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Post by philip42h on Apr 25, 2021 20:05:55 GMT
Sounds about right considering the potential range. Pretty good though ? I wonder how the running costs of the plug in RAV4 will compare.... I guess that it will be comparable unless the petrol engine kicks in ? With manufacturers like Jag able to produce a car the size of the Ipace with a decent range and at the price surely the big boys like Toyota and Honda will have to respond ? Even if they did and did so at the same price as Jaguar it’ll be only the Toyota or Honda die hards that will take the Japanese cars over the Jag....... For now at least the Jag has to be top of the heap of cheap to run decent sized SUVs.... And then, 250 miles later, you'll need the recharge the I-Pace which will take around and hour (or 39 hours via a 13A plug) assuming that you can find an available charge point. This is absolutely fine if you never or rarely want to do more than 250 miles in a day ... and that's enough for many. The range on my self-charging hybrid is around 500 miles per tank - and a refill of the tank takes around ten minutes ... so, for me, the hybrid is the most affordable and flexible solution for 2021. Hypothetically, I'd still like a Jag and the F-Pace plug-in hybrid is very comparable to the RAV4 plug-in in terms of range and performance - but at an even larger price! |
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Post by philip42h on Apr 25, 2021 21:06:11 GMT
... and, as you say, having bet the farm on it's hybrid technology strategy, Toyota now needs a viable EV offering: INTRODUCING THE TOYOTA BZ SERIESI honestly have no idea whether the future is battery electric, hydrogen fuel cell or even something else - it almost certainly isn't ICE hybrid ... |
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Post by charliefarlie on Apr 25, 2021 21:18:45 GMT
Pretty good though ? I wonder how the running costs of the plug in RAV4 will compare.... I guess that it will be comparable unless the petrol engine kicks in ? With manufacturers like Jag able to produce a car the size of the Ipace with a decent range and at the price surely the big boys like Toyota and Honda will have to respond ? Even if they did and did so at the same price as Jaguar it’ll be only the Toyota or Honda die hards that will take the Japanese cars over the Jag....... For now at least the Jag has to be top of the heap of cheap to run decent sized SUVs.... And then, 250 miles later, you'll need the recharge the I-Pace which will take around and hour (or 39 hours via a 13A plug) assuming that you can find an available charge point. This is absolutely fine if you never or rarely want to do more than 250 miles in a day ... and that's enough for many. The range on my self-charging hybrid is around 500 miles per tank - and a refill of the tank takes around ten minutes ... so, for me, the hybrid is the most affordable and flexible solution for 2021. Hypothetically, I'd still like a Jag and the F-Pace plug-in hybrid is very comparable to the RAV4 plug-in in terms of range and performance - but at an even larger price! There was a time when a 250 mile range would not have been enough. Now it’s more than enough. Im not picking holes in any car here. Some it seems are more advanced than others for no more money. Albeit with limitations ... The Jag even if I felt like buying one which I don’t is no good to me anyway. We may buy another caravan and that if and when hitched onto the back would likely cut the range to next to nothing. Im curious why You and Jim class your cars as the 4.5.... They are a completely new shape so surely it’s the 5 or generation 5 ? The facelift 4 when the hybrids first came out were the 4.5 surely ? As I’ve tried to say before I think in 3 years time it will be then that folk have to focus the mind if buying a new car, Would you or I buy a car that in a couple of years be a bit of a pariah or something up to date with a very decent life span left in front of it. Some manufacturers have already said they won’t build petrol or diesel cars after 2025. Jag and I believe Volvo and Ford among them. The deadline for buying the old school cars is 2030. By then all those built will have to have been sold or they’re only good for parts. I would like but don’t need a new car. But for now the water is to muddy to allow that. 👍👍👍 |
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Yaris
Apr 25, 2021 21:30:38 GMT
Post by philip42h on Apr 25, 2021 21:30:38 GMT
First generation is described as 4.1, second as 4.2, third as 4.3 (and 4.3.5), fourth gen like yours as 4.4 and the fifth generation (with square wheels) as 4.5 ... |
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Post by firemac on Apr 25, 2021 21:52:08 GMT
Sounds about right considering the potential range. Pretty good though ? I wonder how the running costs of the plug in RAV4 will compare.... I guess that it will be comparable unless the petrol engine kicks in ? With manufacturers like Jag able to produce a car the size of the Ipace with a decent range and at the price surely the big boys like Toyota and Honda will have to respond ? Even if they did and did so at the same price as Jaguar it’ll be only the Toyota or Honda die hards that will take the Japanese cars over the Jag....... For now at least the Jag has to be top of the heap of cheap to run decent sized SUVs.... I reckon that Toyota probably have a better grip on what’s likely to be the dominant power train for the future than most. They haven’t become the biggest and arguably the most successful car manufacturer in the world by accident. JLR produces some really lovely cars, nice design, luxurious interiors and some genuinely novel engineering but they are a fraction of the size of their obvious competitors (BMW and MB) and are consistently losing money. Tata puts up with them because of the halo effect that they have for the Indian group (as well as the fact that they probably provide useful tax losses against which Tata can offset their other overall profits) but they are currently embarking on yet another corporate restructuring to try and address their inability to get on terms with a market that is innovating to an extent which they cannot match, I’m admittedly old school and much prefer the XJ series of Jags from the 60s to the 90s but I understand that the XF and XE were necessary to remain competitive, except that they weren’t; BMW and MB outsell JLR because they are simply the cars that people want. The I-Pace was intended to mark JLR’s intentions to be at the cutting edge of the EV revolution but it doesn’t address the problem that the average driver doesn’t want an EV because their range is inadequate, they take too long to “refuel” and the charging infrastructure will take decades to be anywhere fit for purpose. Hybrids and PHEVs are the sensible way forward in this situation because they have viable green credentials, they work in the real world and they allow people to be “weaned off” strict ICE power trains in a realistic and cost-effective way. I reckon that Toyota and their hybrid as well as Hydrogen, technology will be around when JLR is a distant memory. |
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