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Post by charliefarlie on Jan 28, 2024 19:06:27 GMT
many thanks another question...where does the design model fit into the range ? is it above the excel or between the excel and icon ? In the Yaris range it’s Icon followed by Design with Excel at the top. Dynamic and GR are as Phillip pointed out elsewhere pretty much the same. I admit I find it confusing sometimes 😳😳 |
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Post by philip42h on Jan 28, 2024 19:11:43 GMT
See me I will only buy any Hybrid car if I can buy a nearly new one and one with very very low miles…. Now my reasoning may not be right but the way I’m looking at it is with a near new car that’s had almost no use the electric side including the batteries is virtually new and hasn’t been used and has a good lump of warranty remaining…. For that reason if I couldn’t or wouldn’t stretch to the numbers needed I’d buy a petrol or diesel. Don’t write off a diesel the 4.4 is as far as I’m aware as good as diesels get. The fella I mentioned elsewhere who has a 16 plate Hybrid is getting low 30s MPG. Those of us and there are a few go onto the Facebook page for the RAV4 may as I have noticed owners of the first few model years of Hybrid complaining bitterly of poor MPG ….. Again I could be wrong but could it be the electrickery the cars have is past it’s flush of youth and giving less assistance or is it because it’s older generation kit so not as good and therefore economical as the later cars Jim and Phillip have… My logic may well be wrong but I liken it to power tools. Pick up a new tool with a new battery after using an identical old set up and I have and the difference can be felt… So surely as the cars get older and the use increases they won’t perform as well ? I understand what you are saying about power tools. With older NiCd devices the batteries died - quickly if you didn't look after then very carefully - and you simply had to through the tool away. And I've had some early Li-ion batteries give-up the ghost. But with more recent kit the batteries seem to go on and on, and, in fact, I've had tools break but I'm still using the batteries in the replacement! Toyota 'warrant' their traction battery technology for 15 years (effectively). Toyota 'warrant' their diesel engines for 7 years or 112k miles if I remember the D4D debacle correctly. That's not an entirely fair comparison (but so what) and there's no real reason to believe that the petrol engine will last that long. But I am seriously untroubled by the traction battery side of a Toyota hybrid. And the Toyota hybrid system has been around for over 25 years now so it is reasonably well proven. I don't fully understand the complaints / concerns over economy. Taking Honest John Real MPG figure as a reasonably objective real world measure we get 42mpg for a 4.4 and 48.7mpg for a 4.5 - both AWD Hybrids. So, yes the 4.5 is better, but the 4.4 hybrid is comparable with the 2.0 diesel at 43.8 mpg. In all cases the actual consumption per journey is very much dependent upon the characteristics of that journey and how the car is driven. So I could complain that for my last journey back home (about 3 miles) the car reported 21.6 mpg - but I'm not quite that stupid and my brim-to-brim calculations still return around 45mpg which isn't bad for something the size of the RAV4 with a 0-60 time of 8 seconds ... Diesels are just fine; hybrids are just better ... unless you need a tractor ... |
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Post by sich1 on Jan 28, 2024 19:19:33 GMT
good point charlie, and one i have often wondered about myself. am i correct in thinking 2016 is past the point of rav4 diesel problems ?
i wanted to try to get away from diesel as my usage in the week is not suited to a diesel with only short 2m trips to work.
tks phillip i had a feeling that there was something happened in the naming around that time, makes more sense now.
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Post by charliefarlie on Jan 28, 2024 19:28:09 GMT
See me I will only buy any Hybrid car if I can buy a nearly new one and one with very very low miles…. Now my reasoning may not be right but the way I’m looking at it is with a near new car that’s had almost no use the electric side including the batteries is virtually new and hasn’t been used and has a good lump of warranty remaining…. For that reason if I couldn’t or wouldn’t stretch to the numbers needed I’d buy a petrol or diesel. Don’t write off a diesel the 4.4 is as far as I’m aware as good as diesels get. The fella I mentioned elsewhere who has a 16 plate Hybrid is getting low 30s MPG. Those of us and there are a few go onto the Facebook page for the RAV4 may as I have noticed owners of the first few model years of Hybrid complaining bitterly of poor MPG ….. Again I could be wrong but could it be the electrickery the cars have is past it’s flush of youth and giving less assistance or is it because it’s older generation kit so not as good and therefore economical as the later cars Jim and Phillip have… My logic may well be wrong but I liken it to power tools. Pick up a new tool with a new battery after using an identical old set up and I have and the difference can be felt… So surely as the cars get older and the use increases they won’t perform as well ? I understand what you are saying about power tools. With older NiCd devices the batteries died - quickly if you didn't look after then very carefully - and you simply had to through the tool away. And I've had some early Li-ion batteries give-up the ghost. But with more recent kit the batteries seem to go on and on, and, in fact, I've had tools break but I'm still using the batteries in the replacement! Toyota 'warrant' their traction battery technology for 15 years (effectively). Toyota 'warrant' their diesel engines for 7 years or 112k miles if I remember the D4D debacle correctly. That's not an entirely fair comparison (but so what) and there's no real reason to believe that the petrol engine will last that long. But I am seriously untroubled by the traction battery side of a Toyota hybrid. And the Toyota hybrid system has been around for over 25 years now so it is reasonably well proven. I don't fully understand the complaints / concerns over economy. Taking Honest John Real MPG figure as a reasonably objective real world measure we get 42mpg for a 4.4 and 48.7mpg for a 4.5 - both AWD Hybrids. So, yes the 4.5 is better, but the 4.4 hybrid is comparable with the 2.0 diesel at 43.8 mpg. In all cases the actual consumption per journey is very much dependent upon the characteristics of that journey and how the car is driven. So I could complain that for my last journey back home (about 3 miles) the car reported 21.6 mpg - but I'm not quite that stupid and my brim-to-brim calculations still return around 45mpg which isn't bad for something the size of the RAV4 with a 0-60 time of 8 seconds ... Diesels are just fine; hybrids are just better ... unless you need a tractor ... Not wishing to split hairs but it’s lithium tools I drew my possibly irrelevant conclusions from. I have two identical Milwaukee 12V drill drivers both are the same model but one is older. If I put the same 9 amp lithium battery in the newer tool I can feel the difference between it and the older driver with the same battery. Similarly I have batteries of differing ages and capabilities are different depending on age. A traction battery in a car is I expect quite different. I appreciate they have a 15 year warranty and I’m not supposing one will fail but I wonder if they weaken with age. Im not doubting Honest Johns numbers but has he tested a new car against one that’s say 5 or 6 years els with 50 or 60,000 miles against a new car ? I’m not dissing hybrids in any way I’m just wondering out loud if you know what I mean. Use of any battery powered equipment means as time and use gets more the kit slows down or looses a bit of efficiency…Im struggling to explain what I mean. |
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Post by firemac on Jan 28, 2024 19:41:24 GMT
I understand what you are saying about power tools. With older NiCd devices the batteries died - quickly if you didn't look after then very carefully - and you simply had to through the tool away. And I've had some early Li-ion batteries give-up the ghost. But with more recent kit the batteries seem to go on and on, and, in fact, I've had tools break but I'm still using the batteries in the replacement! Toyota 'warrant' their traction battery technology for 15 years (effectively). Toyota 'warrant' their diesel engines for 7 years or 112k miles if I remember the D4D debacle correctly. That's not an entirely fair comparison (but so what) and there's no real reason to believe that the petrol engine will last that long. But I am seriously untroubled by the traction battery side of a Toyota hybrid. And the Toyota hybrid system has been around for over 25 years now so it is reasonably well proven. I don't fully understand the complaints / concerns over economy. Taking Honest John Real MPG figure as a reasonably objective real world measure we get 42mpg for a 4.4 and 48.7mpg for a 4.5 - both AWD Hybrids. So, yes the 4.5 is better, but the 4.4 hybrid is comparable with the 2.0 diesel at 43.8 mpg. In all cases the actual consumption per journey is very much dependent upon the characteristics of that journey and how the car is driven. So I could complain that for my last journey back home (about 3 miles) the car reported 21.6 mpg - but I'm not quite that stupid and my brim-to-brim calculations still return around 45mpg which isn't bad for something the size of the RAV4 with a 0-60 time of 8 seconds ... Diesels are just fine; hybrids are just better ... unless you need a tractor ... Not wishing to split hairs but it’s lithium tools I drew my possibly irrelevant conclusions from. I have two identical Milwaukee 12V drill drivers both are the same model but one is older. If I put the same 9 amp lithium battery in the newer tool I can feel the difference between it and the older driver with the same battery. Similarly I have batteries of differing ages and capabilities are different depending on age. A traction battery in a car is I expect quite different. I appreciate they have a 15 year warranty and I’m not supposing one will fail but I wonder if they weaken with age. Im not doubting Honest Johns numbers but has he tested a new car against one that’s say 5 or 6 years els with 50 or 60,000 miles against a new car ? I’m not dissing hybrids in any way I’m just wondering out loud if you know what I mean. Use of any battery powered equipment means as time and use gets more the kit slows down or looses a bit of efficiency…Im struggling to explain what I mean. AFAIK, HJ’s real world mpg is based on his subscribers’ experiences with their own cars so they will be of different ages, some new, some older. Also, according to everything that I’ve read about hybrids, there are still a hell of a lot of early Priuses running around in the US on their original batteries. They were also very popular as taxis (as the 4.5 apparently is now in the US). As Philip has said, Toyota’s hybrid technology is well-proven and there doesn’t seem to be any doubt about the longevity and durability of their batteries.😊 |
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Post by charliefarlie on Jan 28, 2024 20:13:32 GMT
Not wishing to split hairs but it’s lithium tools I drew my possibly irrelevant conclusions from. I have two identical Milwaukee 12V drill drivers both are the same model but one is older. If I put the same 9 amp lithium battery in the newer tool I can feel the difference between it and the older driver with the same battery. Similarly I have batteries of differing ages and capabilities are different depending on age. A traction battery in a car is I expect quite different. I appreciate they have a 15 year warranty and I’m not supposing one will fail but I wonder if they weaken with age. Im not doubting Honest Johns numbers but has he tested a new car against one that’s say 5 or 6 years els with 50 or 60,000 miles against a new car ? I’m not dissing hybrids in any way I’m just wondering out loud if you know what I mean. Use of any battery powered equipment means as time and use gets more the kit slows down or looses a bit of efficiency…Im struggling to explain what I mean. AFAIK, HJ’s real world mpg is based on his subscribers’ experiences with their own cars so they will be of different ages, some new, some older. Also, according to everything that I’ve read about hybrids, there are still a hell of a lot of early Priuses running around in the US on their original batteries. They were also very popular as taxis (as the 4.5 apparently is now in the US). As Philip has said, Toyota’s hybrid technology is well-proven and there doesn’t seem to be any doubt about the longevity and durability of their batteries.😊 Appreciate those Priuses are still going but are they still as efficient ? My point is about efficiency over time as the kit ages and gets used…. Was Honest Johns numbers worked out when were new or near new ? Im not doubting the quality of Toyotas products I’m asking if efficiency reduces as time and use go on. The hybrids efficiency is largely due to its electric part aiding its petrol part. So if the electric part reduces then the petrol part takes up the slack… We seem to live in a world where big mileages is the norm. So a 16plate Hybrid with average miles let’s say 10 per year so 80K miles may have lost some of its battery efficiency so that maybe why some ( not all ) owners are moaning about poor MPG …… |
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Post by firemac on Jan 28, 2024 20:28:28 GMT
AFAIK, HJ’s real world mpg is based on his subscribers’ experiences with their own cars so they will be of different ages, some new, some older. Also, according to everything that I’ve read about hybrids, there are still a hell of a lot of early Priuses running around in the US on their original batteries. They were also very popular as taxis (as the 4.5 apparently is now in the US). As Philip has said, Toyota’s hybrid technology is well-proven and there doesn’t seem to be any doubt about the longevity and durability of their batteries.😊 Appreciate those Priuses are still going but are they still as efficient ? My point is about efficiency over time as the kit ages and gets used…. Was Honest Johns numbers worked out when were new or near new ? Im not doubting the quality of Toyotas products I’m asking if efficiency reduces as time and use go on. The hybrids efficiency is largely due to its electric part aiding its petrol part. So if the electric part reduces then the petrol part takes up the slack… We seem to live in a world where big mileages is the norm. So a 16plate Hybrid with average miles let’s say 10 per year so 80K miles may have lost some of its battery efficiency so that maybe why some ( not all ) owners are moaning about poor MPG …… Hard to say without surveying individual owners. Anecdotally there are reports of those early cars racking up 200K to 400K miles. You would assume that if the efficiency was dropping off significantly and there was no obvious fault, folks would simply get rid of the car. But at this range one can only speculate. But I guess it’s the same situation as a pure ICE vehicle. Do they loose efficiency with time and mileage? Once you get up into multiple hundreds of thousands of miles engines can start burning oil. Injectors suffer widening bores so could use more fuel (depending upon how much adjustment is available from the ECU). Anything mechanical/electrical is gonna wear out sooner or later, even Toyota’s kit. 😊 |
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Post by davidwilson on Jan 28, 2024 20:46:23 GMT
Appreciate those Priuses are still going but are they still as efficient ? My point is about efficiency over time as the kit ages and gets used…. Was Honest Johns numbers worked out when were new or near new ? Im not doubting the quality of Toyotas products I’m asking if efficiency reduces as time and use go on. The hybrids efficiency is largely due to its electric part aiding its petrol part. So if the electric part reduces then the petrol part takes up the slack… We seem to live in a world where big mileages is the norm. So a 16plate Hybrid with average miles let’s say 10 per year so 80K miles may have lost some of its battery efficiency so that maybe why some ( not all ) owners are moaning about poor MPG …… Hard to say without surveying individual owners. Anecdotally there are reports of those early cars racking up 200K to 400K miles. You would assume that if the efficiency was dropping off significantly and there was no obvious fault, folks would simply get rid of the car. But at this range one can only speculate. But I guess it’s the same situation as a pure ICE vehicle. Do they loose efficiency with time and mileage? Once you get up into multiple hundreds of thousands of miles engines can start burning oil. Injectors suffer widening bores so could use more fuel (depending upon how much adjustment is available from the ECU). Anything mechanical/electrical is gonna wear out sooner or later, even Toyota’s kit. 😊 The efficiency of the hybrid engine as far as I know is more than down to the hybrid battery it is also due to the ICE using an Atkinson cycle so the overall efficiency will remain high. |
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Post by clarki on Jan 28, 2024 20:54:21 GMT
The issue I have with Toyota hybrid is the awful cvt gearbox. Slow, noisy and feels aincent compared with modern stuff. No doubt bulletproof, but that alone isn’t enough these days.
Apparently improved last year, along with the hybrid battery itself. Going to try a 2.0 Corolla hybrid when mines in for a service. Good power now and can’t knock the fuel economy.
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Post by firemac on Jan 28, 2024 22:24:32 GMT
The issue I have with Toyota hybrid is the awful cvt gearbox. Slow, noisy and feels aincent compared with modern stuff. No doubt bulletproof, but that alone isn’t enough these days. Apparently improved last year, along with the hybrid battery itself. Going to try a 2.0 Corolla hybrid when mines in for a service. Good power now and can’t knock the fuel economy. It’s not a cvt. Have a scan through some of the Car Nut’s YouTube videos where he explains how it works. |
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Post by philip42h on Jan 28, 2024 22:27:05 GMT
The issue I have with Toyota hybrid is the awful cvt gearbox. Slow, noisy and feels aincent compared with modern stuff. No doubt bulletproof, but ... I simply don't recognise this statement. Are you talking of the Toyota hybrid system? Have you ever driven one? OK, it's a CVT so it does it's best to always keep the engine at optimal revs for the task in hand - so it revs a bit compared with the driver with a manual gearbox who labours the engine just to keep it quiet. (Who me?) So, just like any automatic, it takes a little getting used to, but it works so well. The system as a whole has some 'interesting' sounds, but they are only really noticeable when the engine isn't running - the gearbox isn't at all noisy. It responds pretty much immediately - the system is very responsive and just works. OK, I haven't compared it with much "modern stuff" - what's so much better that I ought to try it? 😊 |
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Post by charliefarlie on Jan 29, 2024 14:01:41 GMT
good point charlie, and one i have often wondered about myself. am i correct in thinking 2016 is past the point of rav4 diesel problems ? i wanted to try to get away from diesel as my usage in the week is not suited to a diesel with only short 2m trips to work. tks phillip i had a feeling that there was something happened in the naming around that time, makes more sense now. Stu even today I see owners of the Mk3 cars having the old diesel issues. So far on both here and the FB page Ive not seen one issue with the Mk4 cars which were introduced early 2013... The cars are excellent but like any car from any manufacturer a car can have problems. The Mk4s are as good if not better than any comparable car from any manufacturer. Short journeys are not good for any diesel engine no matter what car they're in. But using an additive like Archoil or Millers should keep everything sweet and the odd hard run helps. No matter what we buy petrol diesel or hybrid theres things that can wear ot or go wrong. Hybrids have an ICE engine as well as its electric side so maybe a bit more to go wrong but they dont seem too so I wouldn't worry . I would look at the purchase numbers closely as personally I wouldn't pay thousands more for a hybrid than I would for a diesel unless I was going to do really big mileages and would claw back the outlay. |
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Post by three5 on Jan 29, 2024 16:38:22 GMT
Not wishing to split hairs but it’s lithium tools I drew my possibly irrelevant conclusions from. I have two identical Milwaukee 12V drill drivers both are the same model but one is older. If I put the same 9 amp lithium battery in the newer tool I can feel the difference between it and the older driver with the same battery. Similarly I have batteries of differing ages and capabilities are different depending on age. A traction battery in a car is I expect quite different. I appreciate they have a 15 year warranty and I’m not supposing one will fail but I wonder if they weaken with age. Im not doubting Honest Johns numbers but has he tested a new car against one that’s say 5 or 6 years els with 50 or 60,000 miles against a new car ? I’m not dissing hybrids in any way I’m just wondering out loud if you know what I mean. Use of any battery powered equipment means as time and use gets more the kit slows down or looses a bit of efficiency…Im struggling to explain what I mean. AFAIK, HJ’s real world mpg is based on his subscribers’ experiences with their own cars so they will be of different ages, some new, some older. Also, according to everything that I’ve read about hybrids, there are still a hell of a lot of early Priuses running around in the US on their original batteries. They were also very popular as taxis (as the 4.5 apparently is now in the US). As Philip has said, Toyota’s hybrid technology is well-proven and there doesn’t seem to be any doubt about the longevity and durability of their batteries.😊 I was in a taxi recently for the first time in years. It was a Prius so I asked the driver how many miles it had done. "280,000" was his reply. He thought he might change it when it had done 350,000. Taxi's might not be a good example of the longevity of the Toyota Hybrid system as they tend to be run every day for as many hours as the driver can manage - probably not something any of us would contemplate BUT if accumulated mileage is a measure of reliability the figures seem a good omen? Whilst they do a lot of stop/start mileage, they probably only start from cold once a day.
I had my first drive in an LBX recently and rather liked it. It is slightly more than a Yaris in a posh frock though. It has the 130BHP version of the 3 cylinder 1500cc engine fitted with a balance shaft as well as a very different body shape to the existing Yaris. Maybe the updated Yaris will have the same body? Is it worth the cost of a Yaris Cross + 20%, I really don't know but delivery is quicker so I'll update you in the summer when I've had mine for a couple of months
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Post by charliefarlie on Jan 29, 2024 17:11:16 GMT
AFAIK, HJ’s real world mpg is based on his subscribers’ experiences with their own cars so they will be of different ages, some new, some older. Also, according to everything that I’ve read about hybrids, there are still a hell of a lot of early Priuses running around in the US on their original batteries. They were also very popular as taxis (as the 4.5 apparently is now in the US). As Philip has said, Toyota’s hybrid technology is well-proven and there doesn’t seem to be any doubt about the longevity and durability of their batteries.😊 I was in a taxi recently for the first time in years. It was a Prius so I asked the driver how many miles it had done. "280,000" was his reply. He thought he might change it when it had done 350,000. Taxi's might not be a good example of the longevity of the Toyota Hybrid system as they tend to be run every day for as many hours as the driver can manage - probably not something any of us would contemplate BUT if accumulated mileage is a measure of reliability the figures seem a good omen? Whilst they do a lot of stop/start mileage, they probably only start from cold once a day.
I had my first drive in an LBX recently and rather liked it. It is slightly more than a Yaris in a posh frock though. It has the 130BHP version of the 3 cylinder 1500cc engine fitted with a balance shaft as well as a very different body shape to the existing Yaris. Maybe the updated Yaris will have the same body? Is it worth the cost of a Yaris Cross + 20%, I really don't know but delivery is quicker so I'll update you in the summer when I've had mine for a couple of months
I think the revisions to the Yaris are limited to colour and the better engine in the top trim models. I have spoken to one main dealer asking for a price on one of the last of the cars before the revisions. So far they haven’t come up with a number. The fella I spoke to didn’t seem to know the differences though. |
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Post by clarki on Jan 29, 2024 20:00:00 GMT
The issue I have with Toyota hybrid is the awful cvt gearbox. Slow, noisy and feels aincent compared with modern stuff. No doubt bulletproof, but ... I simply don't recognise this statement. Are you talking of the Toyota hybrid system? Have you ever driven one? OK, it's a CVT so it does it's best to always keep the engine at optimal revs for the task in hand - so it revs a bit compared with the driver with a manual gearbox who labours the engine just to keep it quiet. (Who me?) So, just like any automatic, it takes a little getting used to, but it works so well. The system as a whole has some 'interesting' sounds, but they are only really noticeable when the engine isn't running - the gearbox isn't at all noisy. It responds pretty much immediately - the system is very responsive and just works. OK, I haven't compared it with much "modern stuff" - what's so much better that I ought to try it? 😊 I tried the 1.8 Corolla, granted before last years update which sounds like it’s moved things on. The Corolla is a great car, really like the way it drives but the hybrid power train doesn’t do that car any favours, so I bought the manual 1.2 Turbo, car feels far more alive and responsive with that drivetrain plus it doesn’t sound like a cow mooing when I accelerate 🤣 Try a ZF box in a BMW or s-tronic in an Audi, light years ahead. Looking forward to trying the updated car though, if that’s all good now think I’ll probably splash the 💰 |
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