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Post by clarki on Apr 28, 2021 7:49:38 GMT
...coming to the UK. Good or bad idea??
See on the news this morning it looks like legislation is about to be passed to allow self driving cars on motorways at speeds up to 37mph.
Crazy times? or Modern times?
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Post by philip42h on Apr 28, 2021 8:06:02 GMT
I assume that you are referring to this story on the BBC? Self driving cars are probably a good idea and a contribution to overall safety. Getting to that point sounds quite a challenge ... And driving at 37 mph on a motorway sounds absolutely daft and dangerous!  Hopefully that not quite is intended in practice. TSS and the like are introducing a range of 'autonomous' systems to the Toyota range including radar cruise control, distance following of the car in front (including autonomous braking) and a Lane Tracing Assistant - and I'm not yet sure whether that keeps the car in lane or just 'helps' the driver keep the car in lane. I've got all these in the new RAV - I just need to find out how they work and whether I dare use them!  |
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Post by clarki on Apr 28, 2021 9:09:36 GMT
I assume that you are referring to this story on the BBC? Self driving cars are probably a good idea and a contribution to overall safety. Getting to that point sounds quite a challenge ... And driving at 37 mph on a motorway sounds absolutely daft and dangerous!  Hopefully that not quite is intended in practice. TSS and the like are introducing a range of 'autonomous' systems to the Toyota range including radar cruise control, distance following of the car in front (including autonomous braking) and a Lane Tracing Assistant - and I'm not yet sure whether that keeps the car in lane or just 'helps' the driver keep the car in lane. I've got all these in the new RAV - I just need to find out how they work and whether I dare use them!  I think the 37mph limit is so you use the system in traffic, rather than as a default speed tbh. Having travelled the M25/A406 for 17 years i'd say 37mph is optimistic!! I like cruise control but not the radar system and really don't like lane assist, fortunately in the evoque and mazda you can turn it off fulltime. As a colleague said to me this morning though...is an autonomous car not just a bus  |
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Post by charliefarlie on Apr 28, 2021 17:51:29 GMT
I assume that you are referring to this story on the BBC? Self driving cars are probably a good idea and a contribution to overall safety. Getting to that point sounds quite a challenge ... And driving at 37 mph on a motorway sounds absolutely daft and dangerous! Hopefully that not quite is intended in practice. TSS and the like are introducing a range of 'autonomous' systems to the Toyota range including radar cruise control, distance following of the car in front (including autonomous braking) and a Lane Tracing Assistant - and I'm not yet sure whether that keeps the car in lane or just 'helps' the driver keep the car in lane. I've got all these in the new RAV - I just need to find out how they work and whether I dare use them! We have to drive within 35 miles of the speed limits on motorways.... So 37 is just in. Ridiculous but it’s in. So will be able to chat on our phones when the car drives itself? |
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Post by philip42h on Apr 28, 2021 18:16:48 GMT
I suspect that clarki has it right here - ALKS should enable us to circumnavigate the London orbital car park more safely and in a more relaxed manner. If it's targeted at use in heavy, slower moving, traffic, the driver can always take over when the road clears and greater speeds are feasible. It is only a first step ...
We already have the necessary technologies in more modern cars. I believe that a modern Toyota with TSS will happily maintain station with the car in front at motorway speeds (and more) and stay in lane (provided that the lanes are adequately marked) but, I believe, the driver must keep hands on the steering wheel for the system to operate - it's certainly NOT a self-driving system but the technology is pretty much all there today. Other manufacturers have similar and better capabilities so it's not a great stretch to enable it as described.
Obviously there are / will be concerns over the reliability of such systems and whether they are really fool proof, but I'd be rather more concerned by the mixing of predictable self-driving cars and unpredictable motorist-driven cars ...
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Post by shcm on Apr 28, 2021 18:23:07 GMT
No. No phone. It's only level 2. See: www.synopsys.com/automotive/autonomous-driving-levels.htmlIt has been debated (not here, but in the industry) many times, that perhaps some of these levels (apart from level 5) send the wrong message to the public. You are still required to override the so called "autonomous" system in some situations, which has all sorts of other implications. You need to stay alert. You are to a degree comparable with a pilot flying a plane on auto-pilot in this situation, except compared with many drivers, most commercial pilots are far more highly trained and responsible (or are perceived to be). But when do the majority of people actually read and comply with vehicle user manuals? We've already seen a number of fatal accidents due to these kinds of vehicles being misused, as some in the industry have predicted. By "these kind of vehicles", I mean ones like Tesla with lane keeping, not more basic systems like active cruise, lane departure warning, pedestrian detection that Toyota and many others have. These are aids. It has even been suggested that things like level 3 and 4 should be skipped altogether, but that can cause issues with the development path to the final "autonomous" system. The industry isn't stupid, it has some exceedingly bright and savvy people working all these issues, but there are unfortunately a few misinformed people with big gobs in there too. |
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Post by jasehutch on Apr 28, 2021 18:38:51 GMT
I suspect that clarki has it right here - ALKS should enable us to circumnavigate the London orbital car park more safely and in a more relaxed manner. If it's targeted at use in heavy, slower moving, traffic, the driver can always take over when the road clears and greater speeds are feasible. It is only a first step ... We already have the necessary technologies in more modern cars. I believe that a modern Toyota with TSS will happily maintain station with the car in front at motorway speeds (and more) and stay in lane (provided that the lanes are adequately marked) but, I believe, the driver must keep hands on the steering wheel for the system to operate - it's certainly NOT a self-driving system but the technology is pretty much all there today. Other manufacturers have similar and better capabilities so it's not a great stretch to enable it as described. Obviously there are / will be concerns over the reliability of such systems and whether they are really fool proof, but I'd be rather more concerned by the mixing of predictable self-driving cars and unpredictable motorist-driven cars ... I've tried it on the Yaris and as in the video below it can be used handsfree although I wouldn't recommend it , the system reminds you to hold the steering wheel ! |
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Post by bigkev on Apr 28, 2021 19:37:17 GMT
I’ve had self driving cars all my life.
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Post by Mb2t on Apr 28, 2021 21:52:32 GMT
It is ashame that people who think they know better spoil everything. I think there is merit for self driving cars, it is just not yet. The fact that a self driving car at the moment needs to be able to cope with people driving is another level of difficulty.
As for the latest accident with Tesla, yes, the driver was stupid (was not seating in the driver seat) but as far as I read the serious problem was the car bursting into flames which they had difficulty to extinguish. That is a major worry for all EVs and hybrids.
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Post by shcm on Apr 29, 2021 8:02:10 GMT
But when do the majority of people actually read and comply with vehicle user manuals? I've tried it on the Yaris and as in the video below it can be used handsfree although I wouldn't recommend it , the system reminds you to hold the steering wheel ! There you go, not being used as intended, as legislation stands currently, if used this way in the UK. i.e. handsfree......and a comment on the youtube site asking can you disable the "keep hands on the steering wheel" message. Darwin award candidates will see that and run with it. I do wonder how that system on the Yaris will be judged once the legislation is finally passed to allow "hands off". It may be argued the Yaris' system was designed not to be used hands free (because of the keep hands on wheel message but also possibly depending on what ASIL level the system was designed to. see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_Safety_Integrity_Level ). As such it may/or may not have "type approval". We shall see. Potential minefield if not handled properly though. |
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Post by philip42h on Apr 29, 2021 8:34:52 GMT
I do wonder how that system on the Yaris will be judged once the legislation is finally passed to allow "hands off". It may be argued the Yaris' system was designed not to be used hands free (because of the keep hands on wheel message but also possibly depending on what ASIL level the system was designed to. see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_Safety_Integrity_Level). As such it may/or may not have "type approval". We shall see. Potential minefield if not handled properly though. It will need at least a software update to remove the "hands on the wheel" check below 37 mph - but quite probably more than that ... (PS. your link needs an edit to remove the closing bracket from the hyperlink) |
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Post by shcm on Apr 29, 2021 8:56:43 GMT
Current safety analysis of these type of systems takes a team of several people and can go on for months or into years over the development cycle.
If it includes the assumption of "hands on the wheel" only, the way that assumption cascades down(or up) the "analysis tree" (for want of a better phrase) has the potential to make the analysis outcome and any resulting corrective/mitigating actions to the design, radically different to something where hands are assumed off the wheel for a much longer period.
It's complex (well semi-complex and time consuming). Been there, been involved with that.
It depends. If it was designed with "hands free" as a goal, then yep, just removing the message should of course be OK. Otherwise, "here be potential dragons"......
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Post by davrav on Apr 29, 2021 9:23:48 GMT
I do wonder how that system on the Yaris will be judged once the legislation is finally passed to allow "hands off". It may be argued the Yaris' system was designed not to be used hands free (because of the keep hands on wheel message but also possibly depending on what ASIL level the system was designed to. see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_Safety_Integrity_Level ). As such it may/or may not have "type approval". We shall see. Potential minefield if not handled properly though. It will need at least a software update to remove the "hands on the wheel" check below 37 mph - but quite probably more than that ... (PS. your link needs an edit to remove the closing bracket from the hyperlink) Bracket deleted  |
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Post by shcm on Apr 29, 2021 9:28:11 GMT
It didn't need the bracket deleting, just a space, which I had done already, thanks to Philip pointing out. Being pedantic, deleting the bracket, delete the start bracket too.
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Post by charliefarlie on Apr 29, 2021 19:50:27 GMT
That Honda Civic I had had a few of those semi autonomous aids.
It had the laser guided cruise control plus lane guidance and a thing that could read posted speed limit signs and adjust the cars speed accordingly....
Shame the car couldn’t do more than a few miles before breaking down 🤪🤪🤪
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