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Post by davrav on Jan 9, 2021 18:16:33 GMT
OP - original poster i.e. yourself bolo :TU: I don't think anyone is suggesting to scrap the car at this stage but you do have a mountain to climb to get this sorted out and should be aware that it could be a lost cause.
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Post by philip42h on Jan 9, 2021 18:51:23 GMT
OP is the Original Poster - aka bolo1957 in this case. And in your first post you said: ... it drives really well with no lack of power , doesn't overheat and coolant level stays ok as do the oil level . it also gives off an odd smell ... So, it doesn't use oil nor spit out coolant which are the two key indicators of the fabled problem with the 2AD engine. On the other hand it generates plumes of white smoke which isn't a diagnostic indicator of the fabled problem with the 2AD engine. So there isn't any strong reason to believe that is the problem ... yet ... On the other hand, you do have white smoke (rather than steam) which looks and sounds like unburnt fuel - which is, possibly, indicative of an injector problem ... Interest thread here: 2011 Dcat White smoke problem ... it's on the "other place" I'm afraid but interesting nonetheless. The symptoms sound like yours - there again, the fact that the symptoms sound similar doesn't mean the problems are the same.
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Post by shcm on Jan 9, 2021 19:35:24 GMT
Hmmmmmmm, it can be all to easy to jump to a snap diagnosis and tar all T180s with the same brush. While the T180 certainly had its major problems, there are still people running them quite happily. I certainly know of some.
I don't have (or can't find) the data on the pressure sensor conditions for regen triggering, but the attached may help. See the "pressure Versus output voltage" graph in the attached pdf. Output Should be around 0Kpa (0.75V) without the engine running, then you'll have to take it from there.
The last two pages show applying pressure to the sensor, for testing. While you probably don't have access to Toyota diag kit (called Techstream - although it's not beyond the reach of a DIY setup), you could apply pressure as shown in last two pages of the pdf and read off the voltage output at the sensor. Check that the voltage output matches the response in the graph, as applied pressure is changed.
Techstream may also tell you whether the vehicle is attempting to perform a regen (It's not totally certain), or whether you need to look elsewhere.
Disconnecting the 5th injector is a step forward. At least that suggests the injector is not leaking (although I believe that the 5th injector feed is not under anywhere near as high pressure as the main injectors, anyway).
Possibly the 5th injector drive from the EMS ECU is stuck "on", but ECUs can nearly always can detect such fault conditions and flag them.
I'd also have a look @ cleaning the injector housing, unless this was done when the DPF was flushed.
Have a look here:
at about 2 minutes in. This isn't quite the same engine, but it will be similar.
I wonder whether a partly blocked injector port, is preventing temperature rising high enough to enable regen to complete. Maybe not, but.............
Toyota workshop data can be accessed here, for a relatively small fee:
I will delete the other post in which you started asking for data. Please keep everything related in one forum thread. It makes it so much simpler, if it has to be referred to in the future.
I hope that helps.
.....always assuming that the main injectors are all fine, which I would assume the garage would have checked......maybe not.......
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Post by bigkev on Jan 9, 2021 20:08:02 GMT
obviously to late for toyota to replace the engine , not sure what OP is but it seems to me the suggestion is a lost cause scrap it , which i dont want to do for despite the smoke problems its the best car ive ever had, thanks anyway There’s only two mechanics I would allow to split that engine, both on here, but both very old now known to steal bits of car whilst stripped down......! Lol. Sorry to be bearers of bad tidings, but yeah.......engine Friar Tucked methinks, but hopefully not.
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Post by bolo1957 on Jan 10, 2021 17:46:11 GMT
thanks all for links to further info very helpful , i have forwarded on to the mchanic who has been helping me , in the mean time i have ordered a new 5th injector online which i can fit myself and see if that works or helps ,thanks again
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Post by bolo1957 on Jan 13, 2021 15:36:08 GMT
just been reading this kindly linked by philip
(There is a technical service bulletin from Toyota reference EG-0004T-0110-EN which states; DESCRIPTION OF PHENOMENON Some customers may explain about white smoke from the exhaust. Auris, Avensis, Verso & Rav4 equipped DPNR equipped vehicles only! PRODUCTION CHANGE The ECU software has been improved)
As it looks like Toyota know about this problem is it the ECU update something that would be F.O.C. or is it going to cost hundreds of pounds as ive been told , Thanks again
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Post by davrav on Jan 13, 2021 16:59:16 GMT
Ref. the ECU update, why not ask your local dealer? They should be able to tell you if the car has had it [unlikely from the symptoms] and if it is a F.O.C. procedure or if there is a cost attached.
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Post by bolo1957 on Jan 14, 2021 19:00:23 GMT
I fitted the new 5th injector and it started smoking again almost straight away , even driving locally at 30mph (approx )
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Post by shcm on Jan 15, 2021 10:38:16 GMT
Speaking Frankly, I'm kind of not surprised and am unclear about the reasoning behind changing the fifth injector at this point. The original injector was disconnected and the symptoms stopped. That implies a high probability of a reasonably OK injector (no leaking) and also an injector that is being driven (probably turned on, or at least some current is flowing to allow it to turn on or more worryingly, partially turn on). As a secondary point, You might want to clean/decoke inside the casting/housing that the injector, injects into (as per the youtube video - There are others).
Still assuming you've not got the more fundamental engine problems and/or a blown head gasket etc, this would roughly be my methodical (and perhaps long winded for some) approach: (A garage *may* be able to jump straight to a diagnosis with a higher probability of being right first time, due to much greater experience).
1. I would want to determine if the Engine Management ECU (EMS) really was in a DPF regen cycle. That will probably require a more professional diagnostic tester (something like toyota techstream or a third party kit) than a £20 hand held OBD reader.
2. If the EMS indicated it was NOT in a regen cycle, I'd want to then know why the injector appeared to be on. That would point to either a wiring harness problem (that's maybe a bit odd) or the ECU (the injector drive output). For info, The 5th injector is driven directly from the EMS. The main engine injectors are driven from the EMS, but via a separate injector drive unit ECU.
With ignition on, one of the 5th injector connector pins should be a constant 12V (or battery/alternator voltage). The other connector pin voltage should switch between battery voltage and approx 0V. Anything else is not good and may result in the injector being partially on, when it's not asked to be by on by the EMS. Unfortunately the injector (or an equivalent load) needs to be connected to see those two voltage states and you still need voltmeter access to the connections (some people put small holes through wiring harness insulation to probe, I try to avoid that). Plus, the switching may be too rapid to see with a simple voltmeter. I don't know for sure whether that injector is permanently on during regen or whether there is some duty cycle involved. I expect the latter, but I expect it's not at the same frequency as the main fuel injectors.
3. If the EMS is indicating it IS in regen via techstream or the tester (don't just assume it is from the smoke), I'd then go looking @ the sensors involved around the DPF:
a. The "differential" pressure sensor. Check the pipes aren't blocked. Check that the sensor output voltage is not at the extremes of its range (i.e. failed short or open). Again, using a voltmeter or something like Techstream. I'd want to see some "reasonable" output variation.
I'd also want to see the sensors output voltage change (variation), both with the engine (or more correctly the sensor) hot and cold (i.e. sensors can look OK at cold, but fail as the warm up).
Check the pressure sensor is not mostly reading towards the high pressure end of its range, or there are not rapid changes in its pressure reading output. This won't be easy, because I expect there will be some changes in pressure with engine speed/cycle. It's kind of looking for no rapid "long term average" changes in the pressure reading output. (Pressure testing the sensor as described in one of the previous DPF, both hot and cold would be preferable, then you know the sensor itself is good).
A live pressure reading is alos most likely available via the handheld tester/techstream. Look for sensible changes in pressure over some time.
b. I'd do similar with the exhaust gas temperature sensors and the A/F sensors.
If all those check out, I believe we have to assume the DPF system is working as it should (or the ECU sensor input circuitry is at fault). You then need to go looking for other causes and why perhaps excessive particulate matter (soot) may be being produced.....
Worn or faulty main injectors? (a new set won't be cheap)
incorrect injector calibration compensation code programmed into the EMS? Incorrect learning/injector values in the ECU? DPF itself really is past its prime an needs replacing... (The EMS keeps an internal calculation of what it thinks is the long term condition/degradation of the DPF)
All the usual suspects of turbo, MAF, know T180 engine issues, turbo, head gasket...........
Sometimes you get lucky changing parts at random, often you don't.
Or maybe if the above is too much, you have to bite the bullet and take it to a main dealer who *may* be able to diagnose it.
Diagram of DCAT system attached below.
Good luck.
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Post by charliefarlie on Jan 15, 2021 11:22:43 GMT
obviously to late for toyota to replace the engine , not sure what OP is but it seems to me the suggestion is a lost cause scrap it , which i dont want to do for despite the smoke problems its the best car ive ever had, thanks anyway OP refers to the Original Poster. Which of course is you. Sorry but over the last 12 years or so we’ve seen literally dozens of owners both here and another forum turn up with the engine problems. Last one before you was Jamie ( member Rambler).. His car from memory was 2012 which was one of the last of that shape cars. This is/was by no means a T180 problem. Loads of the less powerful cars had the very same issues though the T180 formed the lions share of the problems. My T 180 had its engine replaced twice and still had issues. This is no normal average Diesel engine. You will need a very knowledgeable tech who understands this engine or you could end up throwing good money after bad..
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Post by three5 on Jan 15, 2021 11:44:20 GMT
Speaking Frankly, I'm kind of not surprised and am unclear about the reasoning behind changing the fifth injector at this point. The original injector was disconnected and the symptoms stopped. That implies a high probability of a reasonably OK injector (no leaking) and also an injector that is being driven (probably turned on, or at least some current is flowing to allow it to turn on or more worryingly, partially turn on). As a secondary point, You might want to clean/decoke inside the casting/housing that the injector, injects into (as per the youtube video - There are others).
Still assuming you've not got the more fundamental engine problems and/or a blown head gasket etc, this would roughly be my methodical (and perhaps long winded for some) approach: (A garage *may* be able to jump straight to a diagnosis with a higher probability of being right first time, due to much greater experience).
1. I would want to determine if the Engine Management ECU (EMS) really was in a DPF regen cycle. That will probably require a more professional diagnostic tester (something like toyota techstream or a third party kit) than a £20 hand held OBD reader.
2. If the EMS indicated it was NOT in a regen cycle, I'd want to then know why the injector appeared to be on. That would point to either a wiring harness problem (that's maybe a bit odd) or the ECU (the injector drive output). For info, The 5th injector is driven directly from the EMS. The main engine injectors are driven from the EMS, but via a separate injector drive unit ECU.
With ignition on, one of the 5th injector connector pins should be a constant 12V (or battery/alternator voltage). The other connector pin voltage should switch between battery voltage and approx 0V. Anything else is not good and may result in the injector being partially on, when it's not asked to be by on by the EMS. Unfortunately the injector (or an equivalent load) needs to be connected to see those two voltage states and you still need voltmeter access to the connections (some people put small holes through wiring harness insulation to probe, I try to avoid that). Plus, the switching may be too rapid to see with a simple voltmeter. I don't know for sure whether that injector is permanently on during regen or whether there is some duty cycle involved. I expect the latter, but I expect it's not at the same frequency as the main fuel injectors.
3. If the EMS is indicating it IS in regen via techstream or the tester (don't just assume it is from the smoke), I'd then go looking @ the sensors involved around the DPF:
a. The "differential" pressure sensor. Check the pipes aren't blocked. Check that the sensor output voltage is not at the extremes of its range (i.e. failed short or open). Again, using a voltmeter or something like Techstream. I'd want to see some "reasonable" output variation.
I'd also want to see the sensors output voltage change (variation), both with the engine (or more correctly the sensor) hot and cold (i.e. sensors can look OK at cold, but fail as the warm up).
Check the pressure sensor is not mostly reading towards the high pressure end of its range, or there are not rapid changes in its pressure reading output. This won't be easy, because I expect there will be some changes in pressure with engine speed/cycle. It's kind of looking for no rapid "long term average" changes in the pressure reading output. (Pressure testing the sensor as described in one of the previous DPF, both hot and cold would be preferable, then you know the sensor itself is good).
A live pressure reading is alos most likely available via the handheld tester/techstream. Look for sensible changes in pressure over some time.
b. I'd do similar with the exhaust gas temperature sensors and the A/F sensors.
If all those check out, I believe we have to assume the DPF system is working as it should (or the ECU sensor input circuitry is at fault). You then need to go looking for other causes and why perhaps excessive particulate matter (soot) may be being produced.....
Worn or faulty main injectors? (a new set won't be cheap)
incorrect injector calibration compensation code programmed into the EMS? Incorrect learning/injector values in the ECU? DPF itself really is past its prime an needs replacing... (The EMS keeps an internal calculation of what it thinks is the long term condition/degradation of the DPF)
All the usual suspects of turbo, MAF, know T180 engine issues, turbo, head gasket...........
Sometimes you get lucky changing parts at random, often you don't.
Or maybe if the above is too much, you have to bite the bullet and take it to a main dealer who *may* be able to diagnose it.
Diagram of DCAT system attached below.
Good luck.
Shcm, as usual a very comprehensive analysis. There is just one thing nagging at me, when I had a problem with the car going into limp mode when it was a couple of years old, it turned out to be an incorrectly seated connector to the EMU. The dealer found it, cleaned and dried it, squirt of WD40 and problem disappeared. Is it worth checking that all the plugs are properly seated? It's cheap and it rules out problems in that area.
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Post by shcm on Jan 15, 2021 12:10:48 GMT
Is it worth checking that all the plugs are properly seated? It's cheap and it rules out problems in that area. Yes of course. We often found many problems that others had attributed to ECU failures were in fact a connector problem (and a fair bit of design work and validation goes into the auto connectors). It's often the weakest point (despite what some may want to believe). I would think it would more likely to effect the sensor signals side of things than the injector drive. A high(er) impedance connection on the injector side of things is likely to mean the injector not turning on (and it appears to be turning on) or only partially on/opening. There are other issues around injector driver failure mechanisms, meaning it *might* in a rarity fail in a "partly on" state, but it's technical, exceedingly unlikely and requires electronics understanding.
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Post by anchorman on Jan 16, 2021 4:41:51 GMT
Your problem these days is getting somebody with enough experience not only in diagnosis of an engine but successfully pulling them apart and fixing them. It’s usually a “tech” who frankly has done a diagnosis course but never had an engine in pieces that prescribes the corrective action then an engine specialist that pulls it apart and fixes it, rarely the same person does both. I’ve seen it said on here that a 2AD engine is impossible to successfully strip and rebuild but that is absolutely not correct. It’s only impossible if the person doing it doesn’t know what they are doing.
You need somebody that has a lot of experience in both and these days they are hard to find. This is because modern diesels are very reliable and by the time they are knackered they just end up getting a new engine rather than learning the skills of successfully fixing them. There are a number of checks a decent mechanic will make including not only looking and listening but smelling and occasionally tasting - yes, tasting. You’ve provided some excellent footage of a look around the engine and the net effect even though it is through possibly the dirtiest glass on planet earth.
I would guess that it’s an oil consumption problem but before jumping into it I’d want to smell what’s coming out of the back and I’d monitor oil consumption very carefully. T180s don’t dilute the oil like some diesels do by post injection so the rate of oil consumption is easy to tell. White smoke is either oil or unburned fuel and trust me they both have very distinctive smells. Once you’ve established its oil which I think it is, you then have to determine where it’s coming from. You can usually pull some pipes off and see if it’s coming from the turbo but if it isn’t then you’re into engine internals and again, you need somebody who knows what they are doing because a good mechanic can listen to the oil filler and hear piston blow by or smell combustion products. There will be some wear at that mileage but a good service history will reduce the chances if it’s had regular oil changes.
The DPF sits down the back of the engine and filters out carbon deposits (it’s called a DNPR on a Toyota because it combines a catalytic converter). It has a pressure sensor on the inlet and outlet and compares the two before back pressure instigates a regen by feeding excessive fuel from the 5th injector. It super heats the DPF by literally feeding blue flames into the filter like the afterburner on a jet fighter and the carbon is burned off and sent through the tailpipe. Again, this has a different smell than the smell a weak dribbling injector would produce which is why I rarely comment on such things because I can’t smell the problem by reading a comment or looking at the video. What I can say is that by tracing the oil consumption to either the engine or the turbo you can save a lot of grief and expense. We can presume that the turbo is more likely to pass oil than the engine if we can demonstrate a service history and a leaky turbo will quickly foul the DPF and frequently instigate a regen which looks very much to me what is happening. Before jumping into sorting it out, I’d get the pipe off the turbo outlet or the intercooler whichever is easiest and see if it’s dripping in oil.
So! What does the white smoke smell of? You’ll know immediately if it’s diesel and if you want to know if it’s oil, sniff inside the oil filler cap. Is it consuming oil? That’s another clue. Can you see anything inside the pipes between the turbo and the inlet manifold. There will always be a residue of oil but we’re looking for something more than that. Something that matches the oil consumption. You’ll be lucky to find somebody in a Toyota dealership with enough experience and old farts that can profess to have been around in the days of diagnosing AND repairing an engine are few and far between. You might get some sense from a pukka turbo specialist if you can find one. You can hopefully tell that diagnosing the best course of action isn’t easy by car forum. Somebody that truly knows what they are doing would be very reluctant to commit.
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Post by shcm on Jan 16, 2021 11:02:19 GMT
Diagnosing mechanical systems and diagnosing the control system for those mechanical systems. Two slightly different areas, but both not easy to diagnose remotely. both need "observing in situ".
I was taking at "face value", the statement in the first post that the vehicle wasn't using oil.....otherwise, yes, of course, all bets are off......... :TU:
(There's always the point that engine/oil has a tendency to "wick" up the dipstick and has to stand a good few hours for a decent reading, but I wouldn't have thought that would begin to mask such oil consumption).
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Post by anchorman on Jan 16, 2021 18:19:54 GMT
Diagnosing mechanical systems and diagnosing the control system for those mechanical systems. Two slightly different areas, but both not easy to diagnose remotely. both need "observing in situ". I was taking at "face value", the statement in the first post that the vehicle wasn't using oil.....otherwise, yes, of course, all bets are off......... (There's always the point that engine/oil has a tendency to "wick" up the dipstick and has to stand a good few hours for a decent reading, but I wouldn't have thought that would begin to mask such oil consumption). It does say that but something is making it smoke. It’s about a litre between the two marks on the dipstick so very careful measuring would be needed.
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